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post #31 of 338 (permalink) Old 04-22-14, 02:00 PM
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Keep it coming, man, lots of good ideas. the melta ravagers are something to think about...

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The calls of Slaneesh stir so deeply within me, as if I was birthed from the very essence of it. For my ambition to infinitely ascend above all is never ending, like fire within it burns me to ever cindering ash. Lord of light and ascension is who I am, realities burn to ash at my very passing. My luminescence is unparalleled for I am luminosity itself, all light is but a shadow of my silhouette
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post #32 of 338 (permalink) Old 04-22-14, 03:49 PM Thread Starter
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Glad you're ejoying my musings over lists, Nef.

The melta chosen are great. The delivery is really the only issue, I think. Their Rhino will probably be the first thing that will get destroyed. They pose a significant threat to any armor on the board, but really need to get 6" away to guarantee destruction. Although, any pen needs only a 4+ to explode. Out of 5 shots rerolling 1s, the odds aren't horrible even at 12".

But, what alternatives are there to the Rhino? Chuck a Land Raider into the list for them them at 230 points to keep these guys alive? Sort of takes a huge bite out of the points. The Dreadclaw drop pod is a decent option, but it eats up a fast attack slot. At double force org, that doesn't really matter too much. But really, the earliest they'd be able to deploy is turn 2, then they need to zoom across the board, then survive a turn of shooting, so turn 3 at the earliest they're killing vehicles. That's not ideal.

With 10 chosen and FNP, unless they get insta-wrecked and then have Ap3 rained on them, they can take a couple more wounds than otherwise. I'll charge the 2 marine-laden rhinos first and block line of sight to the chosen rhino, then split them up when it's time to let the chosen out.


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post #33 of 338 (permalink) Old 04-22-14, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by venomlust View Post
Glad you're ejoying my musings over lists, Nef.

The melta chosen are great. The delivery is really the only issue, I think. Their Rhino will probably be the first thing that will get destroyed. They pose a significant threat to any armor on the board, but really need to get 6" away to guarantee destruction. Although, any pen needs only a 4+ to explode. Out of 5 shots rerolling 1s, the odds aren't horrible even at 12".

But, what alternatives are there to the Rhino? Chuck a Land Raider into the list for them them at 230 points to keep these guys alive? Sort of takes a huge bite out of the points. The Dreadclaw drop pod is a decent option, but it eats up a fast attack slot. At double force org, that doesn't really matter too much. But really, the earliest they'd be able to deploy is turn 2, then they need to zoom across the board, then survive a turn of shooting, so turn 3 at the earliest they're killing vehicles. That's not ideal.

With 10 chosen and FNP, unless they get insta-wrecked and then have Ap3 rained on them, they can take a couple more wounds than otherwise. I'll charge the 2 marine-laden rhinos first and block line of sight to the chosen rhino, then split them up when it's time to let the chosen out.

Have you considered the Cypher Dataslate? One of his formations is to infiltrate him plus 1-3 units of Chosen. Only additional cost is Cypher himself. Only downside is you can't take Marks of any kind.
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post #34 of 338 (permalink) Old 04-22-14, 06:20 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by The Sturk View Post
Have you considered the Cypher Dataslate? One of his formations is to infiltrate him plus 1-3 units of Chosen. Only additional cost is Cypher himself. Only downside is you can't take Marks of any kind.
I've really gotta check that out. I remembered reading something about a negative leadership modifier and that sort of turned me off to the idea of using him.

I did forget about infiltrating, though. Especially infiltrating a Rhino, that sounds very nice!

*edit*

After checking out the dataslate, it does look pretty cool. Unfortunately, the chosen squads are unable to take dedicated transports if not part of the formation.

Otherwise, he seems like a pretty solid character on his own.

20 Berzerkers with Icon of Wrath + Khorne Lord with Axe of Blind Fury + Cypher sounds like a fucking nasty unit. Have them all spill out of a Spartan tank and rape anything. Truthfully, it seems like a ton of overkill, but sometimes you just want something really really really dead, and only chopping it to pieces will do.

He also appears to be the only possible source of Hit and Run for a CSM army. I've never used units with this rule, but it seems like you can use an enemy unit in the middle of the table as a nice platform to launch an assault into the enemy's deployment area


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Last edited by venomlust; 04-22-14 at 06:39 PM.
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post #35 of 338 (permalink) Old 04-24-14, 08:10 AM Thread Starter
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I've revised the list as follows, with new changes in yellow:

HQ: CRIMSON SLAUGHTER:

Be'lakor: <== Warlord
Sorcerer: Mastery Level 3, Balestar of Mannon, Sigil of Corruption, Force Maul
Dark Apostle: Mark of Tzeentch, Crozius of the Dark Covenant
Sorcerer: Mastery Level 3, Sigil of Corruption, Spell Familiar, Bike, Force Sword <== joins whatever unit makes the most sense to keep Invisible up on the Juggerlord/Spawn or use Telepathy powers aggressively.

HQ: CHAOS SPACE MARINES

Chaos Lord: Mark of Khorne, Juggernaut, Sigil of Corruption, Axe of Blind Fury, Melta bombs

TROOPS: CRIMSON SLAUGHTER

Cultists x20 <== joined by Dark Apostle
Cultists x15
Chaos Space Marines x10: 2x Meltaguns, Combi-melta on Champ, Rhino with Dirge Caster
Chaos Space Marines x5: 1x Plasma Gun, Rhino

TROOPS: CHAOS SPACE MARINES

Cultists x10

ELITES: CRIMSON SLAUGHTER

Chosen x10: Mark of Slaanesh, Draznicht's Ravagers, Icon of Excess, 5x Meltaguns, Rhino with Dirge Caster

FAST ATTACK: CRIMSON SLAUGHTER

Heldrake with Baleflamer
Heldrake with Hades Autocannon
Bikers x3: Mark of Nurgle, 2x Meltagun <== joined by Biker Sorc if he needs to peel away from Juggerlord/Spawn and join a unit with the same cover save and T6.

FAST ATTACK: CHAOS SPACE MARINES

Spawn x5: <== joined by Juggerlord

HEAVY SUPPORT: CRIMSON SLAUGHTER

Havocs x10: 4x Lascannons, Mark of Slaanesh, Icon of Excess <== joined by Sorcerer
Forgefiend: Hades Autocannons
Forgefiend: Hades Autocannons
Obliterators x2: Mark of Nurgle
Obliterators x3: Mark of Nurgle


HEAVY SUPPORT: CHAOS SPACE MARINES

Maulerfiend

FORTIFICATIONS:

Aegis Defense Line: Quad Gun

FORMATIONS:

Helbrute Mayhem Pack: 3x Multimeltas, 3x Power fists


I figure this iteration of the army is better because it replaces the plasmaspam chosen with meltaspam, which should ultimately be more effective at blowing up armor. The reduction of 1 marine squad seemed like a good trade for more points, which ultimately led to the addition of a nurgle biker squad with meltas. If nothing else, they're a fast-moving distraction unit that has anti-tank capabilities if left alone.

3 rhinos, Juggerlord+spawn, <=Biker Sorc=>, bikers, and a maulerfiend should be plenty to deal with, despite all the lascannons being blasted at them. Maybe that will allow my prescienced havocs who hopefully have ignore cover to pick off a tank every turn (if I'm lucky).

I replaced one Heldrake's baleflamer with the hades because I think it would throw my opponent off if suddenly they pose a threat to his flyers. If I get really lucky, I can pop the Stormraven in 1 turn and kill all the occupants in the crash. I love doing that.
So I pulled off a victory using this list earlier tonight against a buddy of mine. 4000 points purge the alien, hammer and anvil deployment.

His army, from what I remember: Iron Hands/Dark Angels allies

He rolled the warlord trait that gives me -1 to my reserve rolls.

HQ:

Chapter master with gorgon's chain, storm shield, thunder hammer, jump pack, and that might be it? Perhaps artificer armor, if that doesn't come standard.
- joined by 5 of some sort of honor guard, all wielding power axes and storm shields
- embarked in Stormraven

Captain with thunder hammer, storm shield, artificer armor, jump pack
- joined by 5 of some sort of honor guard, all wielding power axes and storm shields

2x Techmarines

Ezekiel (divination)
Dark Angels Librarian (divination)

TROOPS:

Tactical squad x5 plasma gun
Tactical squad x5 plasma gun
Tactical squad x6 plasma gun
Tactical squad x6 plasma gun
DA Tactical squad x10 bolters, some sort of standard that gives bolters volley (not sure who carried it), Rhino
DA Tactical squad x10 bolters, Rhino

ELITES:

Contemptor Dreadnought: conversion beamer + fist

FAST ATTACK:

Stormtalon x3
Dark Angels Black Knights x10. They all had plasma guns, I believe.

HEAVY SUPPORT:

5x Tri-las predators


I think more than anything the dice were super hot for me tonight, and my friend just couldn't catch a break and kept failing his 3+ invulns.

Seriously though, rolling 6s all game long. So many 6s that my Juggerlord rolled a 66 after killing the Black Knight champ and turned into a daemon prince. It worked out fine, thankfully.

Be'lakor didn't pull off anything spectacular this game, unfortunately. Got the Juggerlord + Spawn with invisible twice, then tried to cast puppet master on the contemptor. Snake eyes perils, failed my grounding check, and failed my invuln after crashing to the ground. Not sure if you're supposed to take a grounding check if you roll perils with a FMC, but I didn't feel like looking it up. Seemed fair at the time. The Dark Angels volleyed him into oblivion.

In general, the only rolls he kept rocking were deny the witch. He denied 2 hallucinations, and then when the third got through of course I rolled a 2 so nothing happened.

With my Sorc, I got prescience, misfortune, and perfect timing. Twin-linked cover-ignoring lascannon havocs rocked this game. Took out 2 predators and a stormtalon.

5 man csm in rhino ran up the right flank as a pawn, got popped and killed right away.

The cultists took 2 casualties from one squad, otherwise did nothing. The Dark Apostle just sat there with them behind the ADL all game long. Other targets were simply higher priority, and these guys didn't get touched. I feel bad for them, really. Their purpose is to die, and they failed.

The 10-man CSM in rhino got blown up and wittled down to 3.

The meltaspam chosen in the rhino did nothing all game long. I kept them inside the rhino, waiting for the right moment to use them, but it never came. All the armor got destroyed by my other shooting.

The Helbrutes were awesome. One mishapped and got placed by my friend in my deployment zone. Subsequently did nothing. The other 2 each popped a predator. One of these two then got taken out by the captain and his squad.

The Obliterators did a great job, for once. I've never had luck with them, but tonight they were so-so. Only the 3man squad started on the board. The group of 2 in reserves never arrived. Lascannons were always fired at the contemptor, whom they missed or he passed his cover saves. The contemptor didn't lose any hull points at all. He killed a few space marines out of the 10 man squad and 1 biker, but that's about it.

The forgefiends were pretty good. I think they blew up a predator, between them, and some of the honor guard and black knights.

The Juggerlord + Spawn with invisible rocked the Black Knights before Dark Apotheosis happened. Afterward, they charged some marines in cover but didn't wipe them out in 1 round. They started getting wittled down a bit during turn 3 without invisible up.

The Biker Sorc didn't get to do much, either. Hallucination denied twice, Psychic Shriek denied twice. Craziness.

The heldrakes, or rather the baledrake, did his job. 11 marines killed in 2 turns and 1 hull point stripped off a stormtalon via vector strike. Not bad. The hades drake never made it onto the board.

The bikers didn't do much. I forgot they were T6, but it didn't end up making a difference. Failed a cover save against the heavy conversion beamer.

We ended up calling it after the end of turn 3. The havoc champ on the quad gun used interceptor on the stormraven and after rolling 4 hits, then a 6 followed by a 6 blew it up. He may have taken a hull point off a predator, but this was exactly what I was hoping would happen! It was lame because my friend couldn't catch a break, but also satisfying because... of course it is.

I thought I was going to get my ass handed to me, frankly. Those storm shield/axe squads seem pretty scary to me, but one was in reserves too long, and the other sort of backed off to let me come to him in the hopes that I'd take some wounds to shooting.

More than anything I won this game due to extremely lucky rolling. Doesn't always happen, but sometimes you're on fire the whole time and everything you shoot at explodes.


SUFFER NOT THE PONY TO LIVE.

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post #36 of 338 (permalink) Old 04-24-14, 12:56 PM
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Too bad you called the game at 3rd turn, i guess you would have won. Really not impressed by your buddy's list
a shame the meltaspam did nothing, i hoped for a test before i myself fielded them

The Legion of Perfects Project

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The calls of Slaneesh stir so deeply within me, as if I was birthed from the very essence of it. For my ambition to infinitely ascend above all is never ending, like fire within it burns me to ever cindering ash. Lord of light and ascension is who I am, realities burn to ash at my very passing. My luminescence is unparalleled for I am luminosity itself, all light is but a shadow of my silhouette
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post #37 of 338 (permalink) Old 04-24-14, 03:33 PM Thread Starter
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They should have done something, but at first I didn't want to expose them to his charging honor guard, and then once those were tied up, my havocs and helbrutes blew most of the armor up. The only armor left was the contemptor, who was on the far corner so it would have taken me a couple of turns to be in range.

I thought the Black Knights had a 3+ invuln along with the rest of their gear, which is initially why I was worried about them quite a bit.

I know it's just a matter of time before he switches back to a jump pack assault army, but my cultists so rarely get shot at that I consider switching them all to 10-man units. Especially behind an ADL with the Dark Apostle making them all fearless. Seems too risky, though.


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post #38 of 338 (permalink) Old 04-24-14, 03:48 PM
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Seems too risky, though
In such small number they could be more likely targeted in hope of annihilating them. henche they will again die in the name of the dark gods, sparing your true army some shots.. smaller number=luring the enemy? (maybe i'm just rambling here...)

The Legion of Perfects Project

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Originally Posted by Lux View Post
The calls of Slaneesh stir so deeply within me, as if I was birthed from the very essence of it. For my ambition to infinitely ascend above all is never ending, like fire within it burns me to ever cindering ash. Lord of light and ascension is who I am, realities burn to ash at my very passing. My luminescence is unparalleled for I am luminosity itself, all light is but a shadow of my silhouette
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post #39 of 338 (permalink) Old 04-24-14, 06:08 PM Thread Starter
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You could be on to something. Reducing a squad of 20 to 10 is 40 points. I could definitely do something with 40 points.

In fact, I was thinking that it would be a good idea to give the Chosen Champ with MoS a lightning claw. It would take advantage of I5 against space marine sergeants with power weapons. Without rerolling AP3 wounds he probably wouldn't kill a sarge in one round. The squad would definitely have the advantage against standard space marines, with an extra attack and initiative. I wish I used them!


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Last edited by venomlust; 04-25-14 at 02:52 AM.
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post #40 of 338 (permalink) Old 04-25-14, 03:11 PM Thread Starter
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And now, my 3000 point CSM/Scions list.

My gaming group is cool with me using Scions with CSM, despite their bullshit "come the apocalypse" status. I don't want to verge on cheese, so leaving them at the same ally level as guard seems fair.

HQ: CSM

Be'lakor <== Warlord
Chaos Lord: Mark of Khorne, Bike, Axe of Blind Fury, Sigil of Corruption

HQ: SCIONS

Tempestus Command Squad: Meltagun x4 <== embarked in Valkyrie 1
Tempestus Command Squad: Hot-shot volley gun x3, Vox-caster

TROOPS: CSM

Cultists x10
Cultists x10
Cultists x10
Chaos Space Marines x10

TROOPS: SCIONS

Tempestus Scions Squad x10: 2x Plasma gun, Vox-caster <== embarked in Valkyrie 2
Tempestus Scions Squad x10: 2x Plasma gun, Vox-caster

FAST ATTACK: CSM

Heldrake: Baleflamer
Heldrake: Hades autocannon
Bikers x8: Mark of Khorne, Icon of Wrath <== joined by Bikerlord

FAST ATTACK: SCIONS

Valkyrie 1: Multiple Rocket Pods
Valkyrie 2: Multiple Rocket Pods

HEAVY SUPPORT: CSM

Obliterators x2: Mark of Nurgle
Obliterators x2: Mark of Nurgle
Havocs x5: 4x Autocannons

FORTIFICATION:

Aegis Defense Line

DETACHMENT:

Helbrute Mayhem Pack: 3x Multimelta, 3x Power fist


Not totally sure what I'm doing with this army, but I really like Scions and so I will use them. My biggest concern is the use of Valkyries, really. Since Scions can deep strike, I'm really not sure what the point in using Valkyries to deliver them is. I suppose I won't scatter if I switch to hover mode and disembark the melta command squad in the face of enemy armor. IMO, the Valkyries should be able to take the locator beacon to accurate deep strike units. As they are now, they seem sort of lackluster. Vendettas would have been very acceptable, and made a lot of sense as well with their 6 model capacity. Fucking lame.

Clearly, the writers of the codex want you to buy a shit load of Taurox Primes. Not gonna happen, ever. Maybe 1, but not one for every squad. Their rules are fine, their guns are nice, and I don't care about the low AV or anything. I just like the Valkyries better.

I took a Bikerlord instead of the Juggerlord this time around, just to change things up a bit. Softening up the enemy with bolters before charging sounds great. Spawn are nice, but without Invisibility from Be'lakor they usually get shot to shit or inevitably take more wounds than I'd like from Space Marines in combat before striking back. Also, there is a Champ to eat the challenge.

Anyone have any thoughts/suggestions on how to utilize Valkyries with an army that can already Deep Strike?


SUFFER NOT THE PONY TO LIVE.

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Last edited by venomlust; 04-25-14 at 03:13 PM.
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