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post #1 of 9 (permalink) Old 11-15-12, 07:06 AM Thread Starter
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Default 1850 Black Legion

I own well over 20,000 points' worth of Chaos Space Marines. Funnily enough, I don't own Abaddon, since I've always found him to be...well, a bitch (in the background.) But I was thinking about it, and I thought it might be fun to see if I could make a list using Abaddon's ability to make Chosen count as Troops that would be strictly competitive. I'm not a competitive gamer, but someone had said to me off-handedly that they didn't see how to make the Despoiler fit into a competitive build because of his points cost-- he doesn't do anything that another HQ choice doesn't do almost equally well for significantly less in terms of actual fighting strength, really, because of the Champion of Chaos rule. Abaddon is, like pretty much any other named character in the book, basically unstoppable in a challenge. He's got a million attacks, but it's sort of moot when they end up being directed on a single model most of the time.

Anyway, this is what I was thinking. It's a very elite army, but T5 balances out nicely with the lower model count, I think, and the higher proportion of special weapons means that there's always the right tool handy for the job. And Chosen have an extra attack on their profile to begin with anyway.

The Rhinos are there to basically provide a mobile screen so the Chosen don't get exposed to any more fire than they have to-- I don't think they're likely to actually be in the vehicles very often.

HQ/
Abaddon the Despoiler

Troops/
Chosen, 10-strong
-2 Plasma Guns, 2 Power Axes, 1 Meltagun. The Aspiring Champion has a power fist, combi-flamer, and bolt pistol. Veterans of the Long War. Mark of Nurgle.
-Rhino APC

Troops/
Chosen, 10-strong
-2 Plasma Guns, 2 Power Axes, 1 Meltagun. The Aspiring Champion has a power fist, combi-flamer, and bolt pistol. Veterans of the Long War. Mark of Nurgle.
-Rhino APC

Troops/
Chosen, 10-strong
-2 Plasma Guns, 2 Power Axes, 1 Meltagun. The Aspiring Champion has a power sword, combi-flamer, bolt pistol, and meltabombs. Veterans of the Long War. Mark of Nurgle.
-Rhino APC

Heavy Support/
Forgefiend
-2x Hades Autocannons, Ectoplasma Cannon

Heavy Support/
Predator
-Turret twin-linked lascannon, lascannon sponsons

Heavy Support/
Predator
-Turret twin-linked lascannon, lascannon sponsons

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post #2 of 9 (permalink) Old 11-15-12, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Son of Horus View Post
I own well over 20,000 points' worth of Chaos Space Marines. Funnily enough, I don't own Abaddon, since I've always found him to be...well, a bitch (in the background.) But I was thinking about it, and I thought it might be fun to see if I could make a list using Abaddon's ability to make Chosen count as Troops that would be strictly competitive. I'm not a competitive gamer, but someone had said to me off-handedly that they didn't see how to make the Despoiler fit into a competitive build because of his points cost-- he doesn't do anything that another HQ choice doesn't do almost equally well for significantly less in terms of actual fighting strength, really, because of the Champion of Chaos rule. Abaddon is, like pretty much any other named character in the book, basically unstoppable in a challenge. He's got a million attacks, but it's sort of moot when they end up being directed on a single model most of the time.

Anyway, this is what I was thinking. It's a very elite army, but T5 balances out nicely with the lower model count, I think, and the higher proportion of special weapons means that there's always the right tool handy for the job. And Chosen have an extra attack on their profile to begin with anyway.

The Rhinos are there to basically provide a mobile screen so the Chosen don't get exposed to any more fire than they have to-- I don't think they're likely to actually be in the vehicles very often.

HQ/
Abaddon the Despoiler
he`s da boss, no comments
Troops/
Chosen, 10-strong
-2 Plasma Guns, 2 Power Axes, 1 Meltagun. The Aspiring Champion has a power fist, combi-flamer, and bolt pistol. Veterans of the Long War. Mark of Nurgle.
-Rhino APC

Troops/
Chosen, 10-strong
-2 Plasma Guns, 2 Power Axes, 1 Meltagun. The Aspiring Champion has a power fist, combi-flamer, and bolt pistol. Veterans of the Long War. Mark of Nurgle.
-Rhino APC

Troops/
Chosen, 10-strong
-2 Plasma Guns, 2 Power Axes, 1 Meltagun. The Aspiring Champion has a power sword, combi-flamer, bolt pistol, and meltabombs. Veterans of the Long War. Mark of Nurgle.
-Rhino APC
I dont understand the upgrades, why a combiflamer and just 1melta? Either go 2plasma/2melta/flamer or 3plasma/1-2flamers and meltabombs imo. Also i`m not a fan of PAxes but that`s just personal preference. VotLW is fluffy but not that useful imo with the new regroup rules.
Chosen are great as MSU imo, they dont get much benefit from additional models, I`d just take more units

Heavy Support/
Forgefiend
-2x Hades Autocannons, Ectoplasma Cannon
I think the forgefiend cost too much for a list with already expensive troops, i`d trade this for a heldrake with hades ac for antiair or havocs with ACs for fire support
Heavy Support/
Predator
-Turret twin-linked lascannon, lascannon sponsons

Heavy Support/
Predator
-Turret twin-linked lascannon, lascannon sponsons
do you need the ap2 with all the plasma from the chosen?cause the auto/las pred is cheaper and equally effective at anti transport, Another option could be to take havocs/oblits and let the enemies antitank fire without a real target apart from empty rhinos
Overall creating a competitive list based around Abby is not so easy, but you arent exploiting the pros of the chosen here imo (lot of special weapons in smaller units with decent CC)
At this point level I`d also bring at least 5 scoring troops with at least 30bodies, even with T5.
Ps: have you considered havoc launchers for the rhinos? 3/4 str5 blasts do something but they are low enough in the target priority that they shoul be able to fire for more the a turn, especially if they`re empty.

I hope I gave you some ideas to improve your list, have fun
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post #3 of 9 (permalink) Old 11-15-12, 08:41 AM
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this is what I came up with, not sure if it`s better then your list but it`s surely a different approach

Abaddon 275
5*6 chosen - 3plasma, 2flamer, meltabombs, rhino - 5*203
20 cultists - 2flamer - 100
Heldrake - hades AC - 170
2*7 havocs - 4ACs - 2*141
1842

Abby goes with the cultists and run up the board, the chosen either start onboard or behind the rhinos and take midfield with the havocs and heldrake providing fire support.
I have the same scoring marines as your list with some more special weapons, 20 additional (scoring) wounds for abby and a bit less long range firepower (but better antiair)

Edit: you could drop the extra bodies on havocs and chosen to give all the marines T5 but I dont know...it doesnt help against plasma fire and I see lot of that lately, i guess it`s just personal preference

Just my 2cents

Last edited by paolodistruggiuova; 11-15-12 at 08:47 AM.
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post #4 of 9 (permalink) Old 11-15-12, 09:10 AM Thread Starter
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The upgrades for the Chosen (and them being 10-strong) is actually more of a playstyle choice for me more than anything else. I value units with tactical flexibility above all else, and a 10-strong Chosen unit equipped the way I have them can deal with any threat within 30'' on a given turn. Five Marines are easy to dispose of-- 10 are not. 10 also provides some ablative casualties as well as volume of attacks in close combat. The plasma guns are there because they're just good... the melta is for armored targets of opportunity, and the combi-flamer is there because there wasn't anything better to do with the points and I get a lot of mileage out of combi-flamers these days with Overwatch. The power axes ensure that the squads can take on 2+ save deathstars and at least cut them back to their invulnerable saves and/or feel no pain and do it with enough attacks to stop the Chosen squad itself from being too depleted in the process. The squad that has the power sword on the champion rather than the fist is the one Abaddon will lead-- I figure he can cover the job the fist normally does when necessary and some points can be saved there as a result.

As for the question of anti-air units... as a tournament organizer, I rarely see more than one flyer in lists (if there's one at all) unless someone is playing Imperial Guard, and honestly, this army's fucked either way if someone's bringing a competitive guard list purely because of all the ordinance. The reason I took the Forgefiend was volume of shots for anti-air duty in a pinch; otherwise, it's just a cool model, and it's a good multi-role heavy weapons platform.

I settled on the Predators armed as they are not for the AP2 so much as the third lascannon shot-- since there's no real long range heavy anti-armor fire in the squads, I like to maximize it elsewhere. Again, a personal preference developed over many years of playing with Space Marines of various flavors.

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Last edited by The Son of Horus; 11-15-12 at 09:13 AM.
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post #5 of 9 (permalink) Old 11-15-12, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Son of Horus View Post
The upgrades for the Chosen (and them being 10-strong) is actually more of a playstyle choice for me more than anything else. I value units with tactical flexibility above all else, and a 10-strong Chosen unit equipped the way I have them can deal with any threat within 30'' on a given turn. Five Marines are easy to dispose of-- 10 are not. 10 also provides some ablative casualties as well as volume of attacks in close combat. The plasma guns are there because they're just good... the melta is for armored targets of opportunity, and the combi-flamer is there because there wasn't anything better to do with the points and I get a lot of mileage out of combi-flamers these days with Overwatch. The power axes ensure that the squads can take on 2+ save deathstars and at least cut them back to their invulnerable saves and/or feel no pain and do it with enough attacks to stop the Chosen squad itself from being too depleted in the process. The squad that has the power sword on the champion rather than the fist is the one Abaddon will lead-- I figure he can cover the job the fist normally does when necessary and some points can be saved there as a result.
well, 5marines are easier to dispatch then 10 ofc but 5units are more flexible then 3 big ones .
the combi flamer can be fired just once per game and i dont think d3 str4 hits are worth 10 points while with a regular flamer you can use it for both offence and defence.
About the meltagun i think 1 is not too reliable in killing vehicles, while if you are within 6'' of the tank (where the meltagun is effective) you can just charge and make good use of str6 and 8 grenades.
The PAxes are quite good vs 2+ armor saves but if you already have all that plasma you shouldnt need it unless you face deathwing or similar lists.
Also the power fist on champions is quite bad on chaos imo as the ''champion of chaos'' special rule force you to accept challenges and you risk to die before your model can even attack, i'd keep him barebones and try to challenge enemy sergeants or give him an ap3 weapon and go for power armored characters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Son of Horus View Post
As for the question of anti-air units... as a tournament organizer, I rarely see more than one flyer in lists (if there's one at all) unless someone is playing Imperial Guard, and honestly, this army's fucked either way if someone's bringing a competitive guard list purely because of all the ordinance. The reason I took the Forgefiend was volume of shots for anti-air duty in a pinch; otherwise, it's just a cool model, and it's a good multi-role heavy weapons platform.
yeah the forgefiend is nice, i just think it's price is a bit high especially in an army that's already filled with expensive choices

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Son of Horus View Post
I settled on the Predators armed as they are not for the AP2 so much as the third lascannon shot-- since there's no real long range heavy anti-armor fire in the squads, I like to maximize it elsewhere. Again, a personal preference developed over many years of playing with Space Marines of various flavors.
statistically a tl-autocannon does more damage (aka hull points) then a tl-lascannon vs av10/11, equal vs av12 and lose just vs av13+, not that av13 is an optimal target for lascannons anyway

overall your list is not bad, it could use some more tweaking tough imo.
good luck
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post #6 of 9 (permalink) Old 11-15-12, 10:18 AM
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I like the theme, how about swap the champ fists to another chosen in the sq and give the champ pow sword or mace etc to get around the challenge dilema. you still keep your armour and ap2 threat but wont be hitting at 1's in combat.
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post #7 of 9 (permalink) Old 11-17-12, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Son of Horus View Post
Heavy Support/
Forgefiend
-2x Hades Autocannons, Ectoplasma Cannon
I was under the impression that you can only take the additional ectoplasma cannon if you swap out the hades for ectoplasmas...mostly because it is worded like that - "May take an additional ectoplasma cannon"...implying more than one in the build. Have I been thinking of this wrong?


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post #8 of 9 (permalink) Old 11-17-12, 12:33 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaden View Post
I was under the impression that you can only take the additional ectoplasma cannon if you swap out the hades for ectoplasmas...mostly because it is worded like that - "May take an additional ectoplasma cannon"...implying more than one in the build. Have I been thinking of this wrong?
I guess I can see how it can be read that way. The general consensus (particularly considering images from GW have appeared with the model armed this way) is that the additional ectoplasma cannon is additional to whatever else it's armed with-- essentially, the third gun is a separate option from replacing the autocannons with ectoplasma cannons.

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post #9 of 9 (permalink) Old 11-26-12, 06:44 PM
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One question about your list.

If Abaddon wears Terminator armor, does he count as a bulky model thus taking up 2 models in a transport? If that is true, is he also not able to ride in a rhino with 10 other Chosen marines.

I have been treating Abaddon as a lord in Terminator armor since 5th. I have been forced to put him in a Land Raider with either 4 or less Terminators or 8 or less Chosen Marines. Alternatively, I have to deepstrike him with a group of Terminators if I dont spend the points for a Land Raider.

Edit : did not realize you was going to march behind the rhinos. That is an interesting idea. I would usually do that when 1 rhino got popped but those inside survived and would then hide behind the remaining rhinos.

Last edited by Filch; 11-27-12 at 06:01 AM. Reason: Not carefully reading
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