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post #1 of 8 (permalink) Old 12-14-14, 04:50 AM Thread Starter
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Default 1750 beginners chaos daemons list...help!

So I have no idea what I'm doing, but I'm thinking of picking up either Chaos Daemons or Blood Angels as my next army, built up to the 1750 level. Here's what I'm thinking for CD, tell me what you think!

Be'lakor, The Dark Master 350
Herald of Nurgle, Greater Locus of Fecundity 95
Herald of Slaanesh, etherblade, Greater Locus of Swiftness 75
Herald of Slaanesh, etherblade, Greater Locus of Swiftness 75
Karanak 120

6x Bloodcrushers of Khorne, Bloodhunter w etherblade, Banner of Blood 305

15x Daemonettes of Slaanesh 135
15x Daemonettes of Slaanesh 135
10x Plaguebearers 90

10x Flesh Hounds of Khorne 160
10x Flesh Hounds of Khorne 160
3x Screamers of Tzeentch 75


Total: 1750. Heralds do their herald thing and join up with respective units. I chose Karanak over a juggernaught herald because he'll give that big squad of Bloodcrushers scout! For the Heralds of Slaanesh, I'm torn between the etherblade/swiftness and the beguilement locus, which one do you think will be more useful? I like the etherblade/swiftness because it pumps them all up to i10 and there's an ap2 weapon in there in case I can't get enough rends, but I feel like if I charge through cover thats mainly wasted, and I can get more rending hits (and hits in general) with the beguilement locus. I feel like the big squad of bloodcrushers with invisibility will just be so SO mean... Thoughts?
-Arcticor

*edit: one thing i'm pondering is how I pop transports at range with this codex. It seems like something I should include so I can charge guys inside, but I'm not seeing how I do that reliably without using a tzeentch herald + pink horrors for s6 spam. ideas?*

Last edited by Arcticor; 12-14-14 at 06:48 AM.
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post #2 of 8 (permalink) Old 12-14-14, 08:02 AM
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It's a decent list, and you've pulled out some excellent units for it, but... I'd make a few changes. First, though, I'm gonna reply to a few of your comments:

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Originally Posted by Arcticor View Post
I chose Karanak over a juggernaught herald because he'll give that big squad of Bloodcrushers scout!
Karanak gives some spectacular anti-psychic capability and a whole bevy of useful special rules to units he joins, like Scout, +2 to DTW, his locus... it's a shame that his statline, with AP- and no rending or anything, is so unimpressive in combat. For fewer points, I can get a Herald of Slaanesh on a steed with Beguilement and a Greater Etherblade--hnnnnnnng. You're right to point out that he's better fit with non-Flesh Hound units, though honestly, I prefer to add him to Bloodletters, since Bloodcrushers have some damnably painful downsides: T4 and only a 5+ invuln, for one thing, so anything S8 or higher that gets leveled at them causes a whole bunch of Instant Death on your very, very expensive minis. I'd much rather take, say, 20 Bloodletters with a Banner of Blood--who still get to Scout 6" forward, helping them with their big lack-of-mobility flaw, and have more wounds (and more attacks on the assault) than the 6 Bloodcrushers who cost roughly 100 points more than them... and can't be IDed in 3-wound chunks.

And with that hundredish points, you can buy a squad of Fiends to assault in alongside them to A) drag the opponent's I so that you're striking before, rather than simultaneously with marines (or rather than after Eldar/BA, or at the same time if assaulting into cover), and B) soak up overwatch with your Fiends. And C), as a bonus, stack a little more anti-psychic 12" bubble in the area.

But if you're taking Bloodletters at all, you have weigh 20 Bloodletters and Karanak vs 20 Daemonettes and that Herald I mentioned... the Slaaneshi rending fest has a lot going for it. And has some points to spare for mastery levels on that Herald to shoot for another Invisibility! And can rend T8 Wraithknights or 2+ save Termis, Dreadknights, Riptides etc a lot better. And have more attacks. And have Fleet and +3" runs to get into combat faster. And...

Sorry. Karanak's anti-psychic capabilities are a very tempting thing to take. I keep trying to make it work (say, in a list where I also have Skarbrand DSing in on the Banner of Blood, so that he doesn't scatter and all my assault-on-T2-with-I5 Slaaneshi units get his aura of rage, while Karanak is helping guarantee that the Bloodletters can get that assault thanks to his Scouting)... but it's hard to justify, compared to what else you can get with his points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcticor View Post
For the Heralds of Slaanesh, I'm torn between the etherblade/swiftness and the beguilement locus, which one do you think will be more useful? I like the etherblade/swiftness because it pumps them all up to i10 and there's an ap2 weapon in there in case I can't get enough rends, but I feel like if I charge through cover thats mainly wasted, and I can get more rending hits (and hits in general) with the beguilement locus. I feel like the big squad of bloodcrushers with invisibility will just be so SO mean... Thoughts?
Beguilement absolutely wrecks units. Swiftness will let you strike before most Eldar (or the new Blood Angels), or opposing Slaaneshi Daemons--so long as you aren't assaulting into cover--but Beguilement is definitely worth the price hike. And... why fret the small stuff? Add in a Greater Etherblade, not one of those lesser things. The +1S on a unit with a bunch of attacks (rerolling to hit thanks to Beguilement, with AP2 and I7) is absolutely wonderful. I want that S5, not S4. Worth the points. And add extra movement and another attack in for a few more points with a Steed, if you can at all spare it--plus, then, you have the option of Outflanking the Daemonettes with Acute Senses to have them turn up from reserves on whichever side of the board you want without having to wade through about two turns of enemy shooting across the board to get there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcticor View Post
*edit: one thing i'm pondering is how I pop transports at range with this codex. It seems like something I should include so I can charge guys inside, but I'm not seeing how I do that reliably without using a tzeentch herald + pink horrors for s6 spam. ideas?*
That's... honestly the looming problem that hurts this list most. Not just how they take out transports (and honestly, against rear armor 10 on most transports, the Flesh Hounds and Bloodcrushers with Furious Charge assaults, or Daemonettes with Rending, will be able to crack most transports that they can reach--and if they get a far enough assault, they can wrap around the transport's access points to force an enemy Emergency Disembarkation), but how they take on tanks in general. Be'lakor and 3 Screamers are not enough heavy mech list--say, with 2 Ironclad Dreads drop podding in (plus the AV 12 Drop Pods), then 3 Predators, and also a Storm Raven. Or, say, an enemy Daemons list that brings 3 Soul Grinders. Or wave serpent spam. Or any list with a lot of AV 12+ vehicles...

You're gonna need some more anti-tank, honestly. At least 3 more Screamers in that Screamer Squad, I'd say, to start out (and they stick close to Be'lakor, who casts Shrouding, so that they can Jink for a rerollable 2+ cover--heehee!). Probably also a Soul Grinder, honestly--he's durable and can dish out almost as much pain as he can take.

While I like the Plaguebearers in principle--Poisoned 4+ and Touch of Rust letting them threaten any non-flyer, and Shrouded buffing their defenses--they're sooo daaaaamn sloooow. And if they DS in, they can't run that turn (Slow and Purposeful!), so are helpless and tightly packed against templates and blast weapons. That in mind... they're basically absolutely fantastic if an enemy is coming at you full tilt, but when you're closing on most enemies with your own army, plaguebearers are just too damn slow to keep up. I would probably drop them and the Herald of Nurgle entirely, to be perfectly frank. Perhaps take 3 bases of Nurglings that can hide better and have more wounds than a Plaguebearer squad for half the points, if you want a cheap home objective holder (and still get Shrouded to hide in ruins).

I'd feel most comfortable with another few Flesh Hounds in each squad, so that your opponent can't focus fire one group of them for a relatively easy First Blood. And if you drop Karanak and his Bloodcrushers, you can afford a Juggerherald or two to turn those fast, cheap tarpitting Flesh Hound units into real pain-dealers thanks to AP2 etherblade wielders. Who have a few decent locuses to choose from!

Or you could fold both Flesh Hounds into one squad, hehe, with one Juggerherald--then bring in some Seekers, too, for more fast, fragile pain-bringers to dart up in front of the Daemonettes. Or to Outflank.

Be'lakor... is spectacular. And Spectacularly fragile, for so expensive a mini, so always remember to jink for that 2+ cover. As long as you manage to get off Invisibility and usually Shrouding, so... you might want a few more mastery levels in the list, if possible (on the Heralds of Slaanesh, perhaps?) to guarantee that you roll up enough dice to cast them reliably.

Some thoughts. Do with them what you will. More anti-tank is kinda necessary, still, even after my half-hearted suggestion of "more screamers and maybe a soul grinder." Allied CSM could provide some real help, there: a Maulerfiend and a Predator, or some Havocs and melta-Bikers, would go down like a treat!

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post #3 of 8 (permalink) Old 12-14-14, 06:34 PM Thread Starter
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Wow! Super helpful advice, thank you! (and +rep for it).Here's what I've come up with. I'm kind of sad since bloodcrushers are such awesome models, so its a shame they're not as good as they could be :/

Be'lakor, The Dark Master 350
Herald of Slaanesh, greater etherblade, locus of beguilement, ML1 120
Herald of Slaanesh, greater etherblade, locus of beguilement, ML1 120
Herald of Slaanesh, greater etherblade, locus of beguilement, steed, ML1 135

14x Daemonettes of Slaanesh 126
14x Daemonettes of Slaanesh 126

17x Flesh Hounds of Khorne 272
6x Screamers of Tzeentch 150
14x Seekers of Slaanesh 168

Sould Grinder, Nurgle, Phlegm 180

Total: 1747. I feel like this is getting close to not having enough models on the board, I've found whenever that happens I lose because they can't stand up to all the firepower. I dropped the Daemonettes by 1 each just so I can model up the extras I get as the heralds, which will save me a little money and not make too much of an impact on the game. I'm not sure if this is an improvement on the old list though, it felt a lot tougher with more targets. Is there a unit that could perform like the bloodcrushers that I'm not seeing? Some big intimidating fast moving squad. I've got seekers right now but they feel really squishy with only t3 5++. I kind of figured the bloodcrushers would be less squishy if they got invisibility, but I figure I shouldnt rely on that too much.Anyway, thoughts?
-Arcticor

*edit: also, is nurgle the right call on the soul grinder? I like the idea of 3+ in terrain or 2+ in ruins, but could I be using him better up close in in cc?*

Last edited by Arcticor; 12-14-14 at 07:05 PM.
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post #4 of 8 (permalink) Old 12-14-14, 07:10 PM
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Bloodcrushers are cool models, yeah. I'd rather run them as a series of Juggerheralds though, honestly (each surrounded by 10+ Hounds), if I were to run those minis, though...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcticor View Post
Is there a unit that could perform like the bloodcrushers that I'm not seeing? Some big intimidating fast moving squad. I've got seekers right now but they feel really squishy with only t3 5++. I kind of figured the bloodcrushers would be less squishy if they got invisibility, but I figure I shouldnt rely on that too much
The thing about the Bloodcrushers is that while they're big and intimidating, they're kind of only actually tough on paper--if you tap them the wrong way, they shatter: against melta, lascannons, krak missiles, battle cannons, lances, quite a few monstrous creatures... anything with S8 or higher, they just plain up and vanish. Yes, you can make them tougher to hit with Invisibility... but with Karanak, in your initial list, that's a 425 point unit. It's a lot of investment in a squad that can't kill nearly as many thing nearly as well as the much cheaper Seekers you've added in to replace them.

As for hardening targets? Well, the 14 Seekers you've added to your new list are a prime target for Invisibility. I find throwing it on the fast, cheap and deadly unit that's as fragile as glass--eliminating its largest weakness, rather than making a sort-of-tough unit tougher--turns them into a nightmare that opponents will sink a large amount of their shooting into. Yeah, they're exactly as fragile as a Daemonette. But to be so few points more in order to be half again as killy and twice as fast... it's worth investing in their defenses with your various buffs, I find, to keep them alive--and well worth taking them.

The fact that Seekers move and run 17-24" per turn (plus the 17 Scouting Flesh Hounds getting to go again, and the Screamers being able to go flat out, and plus, well, Be'lakor) means that you'll have a sizable contingent in your opponent's face at the end of Turn 1. I've had a number of opponents making nervous comments about how much of my army is right in their face--especially when I've gotten the first turn, so before they get the chance to so much as thin my ranks.

If you don't want to camp your Soul Grinder in a ruin (though that 2+ Nurgle save is very nice), you could always take Slaanesh instead: instead of Slow & Purposeful, you get Fleet and +3" to Run! Move up at the same speed as the Daemonettes, if you don't mind not firing for a turn, and join the massive, threatening assault wave as a heavy tank-cracking walker...

CSM Plog, Tactica

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post #5 of 8 (permalink) Old 12-14-14, 09:09 PM Thread Starter
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Great, obviously I'll have to try everything out via proxy to see if the list suits my play style, but things look like they're taking shape! One last thing regarding ranged anti tank and anti infantry... I was looking at the warp gaze upgrade on the soul grinder, but at bs3 it seems way too inconsistent. What about swapping the soul grinder for 2x burning chariots? they've got relentless torrent ap3 flamers and d3 lascannon shots. 2 are a little more expensive than the soul grinder, but they look so damn flimsy. What are your thoughts, is the extra ranged firepower worth the flimsy profile? (and is there any way to make these guys more survivable, wargear or strategies?)
-Arcticor
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post #6 of 8 (permalink) Old 12-14-14, 10:16 PM
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I pretty much only include the Burning Chariot if I have a powerful defensive buff designated to its use: that is to say, either Invisibility (which is only guaranteed with Be'lakor) or Grimoire, which gives it a 3+ invuln rerolling 1s--brutal!--buuut... can backfire pretty regularly unless you also bring the fairly expensive Fateweaver.

I definitely have some "Daemon Engine Gunline" style lists with Fatey, a Burning Chariot, 2 Soul Grinders, and some allied CSM Daemons, but in a light infantry/cavalry/beast assault army, I generally go for defensive buffs on those fragile advancing squads, honestly. Still, the Burning Chariot can put out some seriously flexible pain in shooting, if you can protect it adequately. I probably wouldn't take 2, though...

Warp Gaze is really only worth bringing, to my eyes, if you're also taking Tzeentchi HQs of some sort, so as to roll on Divination for Prescience. If you go for an advancing Slaaneshi SG, you can shave off a few points by going Torrent rather than Phlegm: the no scatter is nice, and can help remove those pesky "ignores cover" units like pathfinders and IG Command Squads for whom you usually don't need an AP3 attack to take out, though Thunderfire Cannons, Wyverns, et al... are a different story. Since you're taking Be'lakor, you need a viable way to take out cover-ignoring units (or counter them long enough to reply: starting Be'lakor surrounded by Daemonettes so that DSing Sternguard can't get in rapid fire range with their cover ignoring bolts if a Marines player gets the first turn, for instance)

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post #7 of 8 (permalink) Old 12-18-14, 06:08 PM Thread Starter
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So thinking about some of my issues with shooting and AA, I've allied in some chaos space marines, made a swap in my hq section, and came up with this.

Kairos Fateweaver 300
Herald of Slaanesh, ML1, greater reward 120
Herald of Slaanesh, ML1, greater reward 120
Herald of Slaanesh, ML1, grimoire of true names 145

14x Daemonettes 126
14x Daemonettes 126

13x flesh hounds of khorne 208
6x screamers of tzeentch 150
14x seekers of slaanesh 168

Chaos sorcerer 60
10x Cultists 50
Forgefiend, 2x Hades Autocannon 175


Total: 1748. With this I've substituted the invisibility from Be'lakor with the grimoire + fateweavers reroll, so I should still be able to make the seekers a hard target to crack (maybe if I'm lucky i'll roll up cursed earth and make it 2++, but I think it would be smarter for me to stick with telepathy on the heralds). Fateweaver + the forgefiend provide me with some much needed anti-infantry and anti-tank, as well as mediocre flyer protection. Thoughts? is this any better than the previous lists
-Arcticor
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post #8 of 8 (permalink) Old 12-18-14, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
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(maybe if I'm lucky i'll roll up cursed earth and make it 2++, but I think it would be smarter for me to stick with telepathy on the heralds)
Well, Fateweaver was just recently FAQ'd to get a Malefic power on each head, so there's a bit more of a chance. Plus you have your Warp Storm (rerollable, yay Fatey!) that could result in you getting +1 to invulns across the board.

The thing about swapping Be'lakor for Fateweaver... is that you're dropping a character with 5 S7 Armorbane attacks for a character whose anti-tank generally boils down to a S4+D6, AP2 beam. It's a real hit to your anti-tank capabilities.

I might advise playing both lists, swapping out the proxy HQ, or something, to see which you get to like better.

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