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post #91 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-20-12, 03:38 PM
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I get what you are saying, I even agree with a lot of it. I just don't think you give the Emp. enough credit. ... I think the only reason he is on the Golden Throne is because that is exactly where he wants to be. I don't think he is good or evil, I think he is power. In the Fiction when he destroyed Horus he drove out all 4 Chaos gods. ... A being like that does not make mistakes.
I don't know whether the Emperor is infallible or not. I can't give you a qualified opinion. What I do know is that the novels qualify that he is not omnipotent - they are able to conceal the developing Heresy from him. That's not necessarily the same as "making mistakes", but it does show that it is possible for him to fail.

Where driving the four Chaos Gods out is concerned, I'll reserve the right to wait until that book is written before committing to "what happened"... but I think there's probably a difference between "driving four Chaos gods out" (of a mortal host whom they are empowering) and facing the full might of the actual Ruinous Powers.

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Ultimately I think Horus was right as far as what the Emperor was going to do after the Great Crusade. He destroyed the Thunder Warriors, why wouldn't he do it to the Astartes when they were no longer needed?
Right about what? I'm pressed for time so I can't provide quotes right now, but in "False Gods" Erebus seizes on Horus' doubts as to why the Emperor goes back to Terra and provides him with a false vision that (A) plays on his fears by showing a future where the Emperor is worshipped as god (making his father look like a hypocrite), (B) Horus is forgotten/unknown (playing on the Warmaster's own ego). That Erebus withholds the fact that this future is only possible if Horus rebels to begin with it the cherry on the cake!

I don't recall anything in those visions about destroying the Astartes, though. I'll have to double-check on that... you got me curious.

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You brought up a good point with the "Kill all xenos" thing. Not so much from your argument, ...
Zing.

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... but you got me thinking. My knee jerk reaction was to say "look at the rule books". It says in the fluff "Suffer not the xenos to live". But it also says the same thing about the Heretic. Heretic? The Emperor believed in the 'secular truth' (or at least went to great lengths to lie to all humanity about it). Heretic implies some kind of religion/worship. That had to come after the Heresy, but it is passed off as being straight from the Emperor's lips which it obviously wasn't.
A lot (if not most) of the material in the rulebooks, Index Astartes, etc., is written from the POV of the Imperium in the year 40,999. The record is rife with propaganda, mythology, and missing material. Consider how little we know about Alexander the Great, or how much of the surviving information we have is known to be exaggerated/inaccurate.

The Imperium in the present is virulently anti-Xenos. The Emperor himself was certainly ruthless against Xenos (he saw entire species wiped out, had no patience for those who would stand against a human galactic empire)... but there was apparently room for assimilation of certain xenos societies under certain conditions.

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Edited to add, sorry about the Phoebe thing. No disrespect intended. I was just being lazy and it was easier to remember Phoebe rather than Phoebus. Don't know where you got Phoebus from, but Phoebe is favorite charachter from "Catcher in the Rye".
Phoebus is my name - and no offense was taken.
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post #92 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-20-12, 03:54 PM
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Wanted to add, I don't believe this for a second.

One of the oldest themes in Warhammer 40k is that the Primarchs approached - and in some cases exceeded - the Emperor in power.


All 18 of the primarchs knew their station in life. Even the ones who hated him from the onset like Mort and Angron knew that while being the best at what they do they were just a shadow of what the Emperor is capable of. Angron can get mad? His tantrums would seem like PMS when compared to what the Emperor is capable of when he really gets pissed.

I think all 20 primarchs = 1 Emperor. They all reflect an aspect of the Emp. But I also think the Emp can beat any one of them at their own specialty. Think of how he met Magnus as opposed to how he met Angron. Magnus would not have respected him if he gave him a wedgy and 'booked him'.

As much as Angron may have hated it, he could not have followed the Emperor unless he was bested by the Emperor (I am not asking you to follow me, I am telling you). There is very little diplomacy with Angron and the World Eaters. Might does make right. The Emperor calmly talking to Angron about the wonders of the Imperium would have been met with a chain axe. Magnus even says in "1000 sons" that the highest rank is reserved for the Emp. He knows his place (or at least did pre-hersey)
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post #93 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-20-12, 04:12 PM
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I don't know whether the Emperor is infallible or not. I can't give you a qualified opinion. What I do know is that the novels qualify that he is not omnipotent - they are able to conceal the developing Heresy from him. That's not necessarily the same as "making mistakes", but it does show that it is possible for him to fail.

I disagree. I think he has an overall plan. The only reason he is on the Golden Throne is that is exactly where he wants be. IMO the Heresy was just stage 1 of he is trying to accomplish.

Food for thought. What do you think 10,000 years worth of fanatical worship does to a near like god being in the warp?

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post #94 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-20-12, 05:13 PM
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I don't recall anything in those visions about destroying the Astartes, though. I'll have to double-check on that... you got me curious.

Not a vision as much as common sense. Horus was no fool. What happens to us (Astartes) after we win the "Great Crusade"? They have no station in life. The war has been won. And looking at the Thunder Warriors the Astartes could expect the same fate. I am no big fan of the Emp. despite our argument. I think the Emp. would have thrown Magnus on the Golden Throne in a second to scream into the void for eternity if it meant he got his webway..

Horus saw it. He hated making complianted worlds just to see them turned over to politicians. He conquered them, he should rule them. He is Warmaster after all. Where did the corruption first start? I don't think it was him getting poked with a sword on Davin.

If you are hazy on what Horus said, look up the talks he had with the Remembercer from "Horus Rising". He also said that Sanguiness would be a better Warmaster, and most shocking of all is that he mentioned a gold ring that his father gave him a year b4 the emp was born. I am as old as dirt (40), so I remember the old fluff.
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post #95 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-20-12, 06:08 PM
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I disagree. I think he has an overall plan. The only reason he is on the Golden Throne is that is exactly where he wants be. IMO the Heresy was just stage 1 of he is trying to accomplish.
Hate that idea, absolutely hate it. Would remove all tragedy from the setting IMO. The way the Heresy books have been written does not indicate that this is the case at all.
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post #96 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-20-12, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Zooey72 View Post
Wanted to add, I don't believe this for a second.

One of the oldest themes in Warhammer 40k is that the Primarchs approached - and in some cases exceeded - the Emperor in power.
That's not my opinion. That's one of the oldest quotes from Warhammer 40k rulebooks.

That having been said, I think what they (the writers) were trying to say in that case was that a Primarch might approach - or exceed - the Emperor in a certain aspect of power.

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I disagree. I think he has an overall plan. The only reason he is on the Golden Throne is that is exactly where he wants be. IMO the Heresy was just stage 1 of he is trying to accomplish.
"Omnipotent" means "all-powerful" - it has nothing to do with having an "overall plan". Feel free to disagree with me. Like I said, neither one of us will know for sure until the last books are written.

Personally, though, I think what happened to the Emperor was the absolute worst-case scenario. I think there is enough evidence out there that shows that the Emperor's "master plan" was - basically - to:

1. Isolate humanity from Chaos through a secular society - deny the Ruinous Powers their biggest source of "fuel".
2. Utilize the Webway to give humanity galactic reach without being tainted by Chaos.

Instead, the Emperor is stuck in agonizing limbo, serving as the figurehead (and lighthouse) of a brutal theocracy whose very actions ultimately ensure Chaos just gets stronger.

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Food for thought. What do you think 10,000 years worth of fanatical worship does to a near like god being in the warp?
Ian Watson's take - in the "Inquisition War" trilogy - was that they go insane.

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Originally Posted by Zooey72 View Post
Not a vision as much as common sense. Horus was no fool. What happens to us (Astartes) after we win the "Great Crusade"? They have no station in life. The war has been won. And looking at the Thunder Warriors the Astartes could expect the same fate. I am no big fan of the Emp. despite our argument.
Interestingly, though, Horus never mentions it. His concern seems centered on hubris - his fears that his dad is on a power-worship trip, ironically exarcebated by the fact that he himself isn't famous in the future.

More seriously, though, Horus isn't worried about his warriors being wiped out; he's worried about them becoming obsolete. The Great Crusade is the war to end all wars, and what will happen to the Legiones Astartes is voiced throughout many novels. Some characters (uincluding Horus) resent the idea that they will have to answer to bureaucrats. Others believe the idea is silly - that there will always be another war. Still others - in "Know No Fear" - probably have exactly the right idea: that, while the Astartes are magnificent warriors, their powers and abilities are such that they could be much more. With their minds, they could potentially become the next class of leaders/rulers/managers/etc.

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I think the Emp. would have thrown Magnus on the Golden Throne in a second to scream into the void for eternity if it meant he got his webway..
Absolutely.

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Where did the corruption first start? I don't think it was him getting poked with a sword on Davin.
There's a difference between having a flaw (hubris) and the process of being corrupted.

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... and most shocking of all is that he mentioned a gold ring that his father gave him a year b4 the emp was born. I am as old as dirt (40), so I remember the old fluff.
You'll have to remind me where that's at.

Cheers,
P.
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post #97 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-20-12, 08:15 PM
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I am going to have to dig up my old "Horus Rising" book to give you the page number.

The old time fluff was that the emp was created by the ritualistic suicide of 10,000 shaman. On the day that all of them died the Gold ring was created. A year later the Emp was born as the embodiement of all of those shaman. In "Horus Rising" Horus reflects on his father giving him the ring (I believe he wears it as a necklace). He even goes so far to say that the ring is one year older than the Emp.
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post #98 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-20-12, 08:44 PM
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Nice! I've been meaning to re-read the novels to hit up on tidbits like that again.
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