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post #1 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-16-10, 07:19 PM Thread Starter
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Default The Lion a loyalist

Ive just started reading fallen angels again for the second time and came across something which should prove alot towards the lion being loyal.

Alot of people seem to think it was mostly terrans who where sent back to caliban but in fact its mostly calibanites who are sent back and the lion surrounds himself with terrans. Page reference 15 it had escaped no one that virtually all of the astartes being sent home were from caliban rather than terra.. Now if the lion was planning on turning traitor and was purging his legion of those who would not follow him then why surround himself with terrans who would be more likely to be loyal to the emperor.

Now heres another point which is even more obvious. its actually decades before the heresy when the lion sends them back to caliban so how would he be purging the legion or even thinking about turning traitor when its decades before the heresy even starts. Page Reference 35 Luther and the rest seemed to have been entirely banished from the primarchs mind and as the years lengthened into decades rhunours and speculation had begun to circulate.
these were the thoughts of chaplain Nemiel on the embarkation deck.

The first chapter is all about luther being sent home to caliban and it says on the top of the page its the 147th year of the great crusade.
the next chapter which is up to date states at the top of the page that it is now the 200th year of the great crusade just when the lion finds out about the heresy.
53 years have past since luther was sent home befors the heresy. Enough said i think.

Thoughts please.

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Last edited by FORTHELION; 08-16-10 at 07:32 PM.
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post #2 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-16-10, 09:05 PM
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It won't be enough to convince those people who cling to the theory that the Lion was a fence-sitter im afraid...

I could pick apart both those points right now, so it won't do much good convincing the people who are convinced the Lion was some form of traitor or fence-sitter.

But notable finds none-the-less.



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post #3 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-16-10, 09:58 PM
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If you've read Angels of Darkness; the issue of terran vs Calibanite Dark Angels is first raised there.

The problem I have is that neither of the Dark Angels books characterise the Lion well or offer any real insight into his reasoning... he pretty much just comes across as a bit of a douche.

If I read into the book and effectively run with some subtle hints and themes [that also play out accross the HH series.]

Caliban is tainted to its core by chaos. The knights of the world hunt chaos beasts and collect lore on them [also in some cases collect the beasts themselves.] There entire feudal system is intertwined with chaos you might say.

Some calibanites are uneasy with the Imperium moving in and altering and harvesting their planet [unaware? of its chaosy core.]

The primarchs are unaware of Chaos [a running theme in the HH, the emperor doesn't tell them and basically keeps asking them to ignore hints of chaos etc.] However many of them are slowly becoming aware of malevolent forces [whatever they are since obviously daddy says there are no evil god type things]

So presumably the Lion [and bearing in mind his early years as basically a savage] starts to wonder if the things on Caliban ore connected to other things he may have encountered, perhaps the misgivings about the imperium make him begin to distrust the Calibanite natives.

[Id imagine his formative years would have given him a healthy dose of paranoia]

So yeah, I think that may be a part of the whole thing.

Honestly, I don't get from anything written that the Lion was tempted by Chaos or was a fence sitter... the only being he seems to truly trust is the emperor.
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post #4 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-16-10, 10:06 PM Thread Starter
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I agree i havnt seen any written evidence yet where it shows the lion was a fence sitter. apart from Astelan in Angels of darkness, and he was a fallen angel so thats not exactly a reliable source.

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post #5 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-16-10, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FORTHELION View Post
and he was a fallen angel so thats not exactly a reliable source.
Theres just as much reason to believe a fallen angel as there is a loyalist Dark Angel to be honest.



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I do love how we don't even need CotE to comment anymore, chances are he has already said something intelligent before that can be re-applied to the current situation.
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post #6 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-17-10, 12:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the.alleycat.uk View Post
.Honestly, I don't get from anything written that the Lion was tempted by Chaos or was a fence sitter... the only being he seems to truly trust is the emperor.
Yeah I'm with you on this; I don't recall ever getting the slightest notion that the Lion was anything but a Loyalist. I haven't read Gav's book yet - it's sitting on my 'to read' pile. Probably get to it after I finish Nemesis.
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post #7 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-17-10, 09:09 AM
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The Lions motives were greyed a little at the end of Fallen Angels( I think. Maybe Descent of Angels. Going senile) when he handed the siege weapons over to Perturabo and the little comments they made between each other. The Lion may have been misled by Perturabo or in cahoots with him, Im not sure. Maybe further clarification arises further into the HH series??

>
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post #8 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-17-10, 10:02 AM Thread Starter
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What i do agree is the lion is angling to become the new warmaster after horus has turned traitor. He gave the seige engines to perturabo. Nobody knew perturabo had turned traitor. Perturabo was on his way to Istavann at that stage as part of the loyalist force.

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post #9 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-17-10, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Child-of-the-Emperor View Post
Theres just as much reason to believe a fallen angel as there is a loyalist Dark Angel to be honest.
Yes. Also; no. A fallen angel's perspective is going to be clouded with bitterness for a start. As I said, i think rather than a fence sitter the Lion was more concerned by what he percieved as disloyalty in his own legion.

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Originally Posted by Turkeyspit View Post
Yeah I'm with you on this; I don't recall ever getting the slightest notion that the Lion was anything but a Loyalist. I haven't read Gav's book yet - it's sitting on my 'to read' pile. Probably get to it after I finish Nemesis.
Its a really good book, and it started the themes that the two HH books run with.

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Originally Posted by Boganius Maximal View Post
The Lions motives were greyed a little at the end of Fallen Angels( I think. Maybe Descent of Angels. Going senile) when he handed the siege weapons over to Perturabo and the little comments they made between each other. The Lion may have been misled by Perturabo or in cahoots with him, Im not sure. Maybe further clarification arises further into the HH series??
My reading of that was that it was intended to be a purely 'twist' ending. That after all these marines had died trying to keep the engines out of the hands of chaos, they end up being handed over to someone that we [the audience] know is going to turn traitor.

In other words, if we didn't have the meta knowledge about Petaruabo and only had the information from the HH books, that action would seem perfectly fine.
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post #10 of 49 (permalink) Old 08-17-10, 10:56 AM
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One reason that all the Calibanites were sent home is obvious, the Lion wanted them there as a power base. The more Terrans he took with him on the frontlines the more of them would get killed, and the Calibanite Dark Angels who were loyal to the Lion first and Emperor second would back him up in the event he would betray the Imperium.



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