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post #21 of 74 (permalink) Old 03-24-10, 12:49 AM
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I'm no fan of the smurfs, far from it, but I have to say I like him. He isn't afraid to do his own thing despite the smurf fanatacism to the codex.

As to his deeds being over the top, he is a SM captain, one of the most lethal and intelligent warriors in the galaxy. They are supposed to do things like this on a regular basis, all before breakfast.

The fact he let the mutants survive, especially mutated marines, really didn't ring through with regard to marine puritanical beliefs, but what the hell, nothing wrong with a bit of humanity in one of humanity's greatest defenders.
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post #22 of 74 (permalink) Old 03-24-10, 01:08 AM
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I don't like him (or the Ultramarines) for a number of reasons:
1. Uriel is a tool, pure and simple.
2. Any self respecting Space Marine, even if stranded, wouldn't cooperate with mutants...
3. The Ultramarines are the default choice, the status quo. I applaud anyone that thinks outside of the box and actually picks a more unique choice.


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post #23 of 74 (permalink) Old 03-24-10, 01:38 AM
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Eh I like him well enough. I don't think his deeds are over the top or unbelievable when compared to the vast majority of Black Library books. Really when compared with other series Ventris's exploits are a little mundane.

On Space Marines cooperating with mutants, I seem to recall that he wasn't really a Space Marine for most intents and purposes at the time. Probably had something to do with the streak in his character that could see him cooperating with mutants or using other non-codex sanctioned tactics when he believed it was for the good of the Imperium.

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post #24 of 74 (permalink) Old 03-24-10, 01:48 AM Thread Starter
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I can imagine Ventris coopertaing with the mutants. If you're on freaking Medrengard and you're not on the guest list then you take any and all help you can get. After Medrengard is another thing...haven't read the other Ventris books.

Then there's the whole loyalty to the emperor thing with them too...I suppose.
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post #25 of 74 (permalink) Old 03-24-10, 02:37 AM
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Eh I like him well enough. I don't think his deeds are over the top or unbelievable when compared to the vast majority of Black Library books. Really when compared with other series Ventris's exploits are a little mundane.
Oh yea, like what? (Also try to give an example that doesn't include Ultramarines!)



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post #26 of 74 (permalink) Old 03-24-10, 05:25 AM
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Oh yea, like what? (Also try to give an example that doesn't include Ultramarines!)
Anything with Ciaphus Cain, towering over Ventris by not only doing things on a larger scale, but practically single handed, though I don't hold it against him. Anything involving Mkoll and Mkvenner from Gaunt's Ghosts (not really on the same scale, but when the fact that they're human is taken into account it's a much bigger jump then a veteran space marine captain.) Cherubael in the Eisenhorn series, though he is the villian, so I don't know if that counts. I could probably think of a few more with some rereading, but these are from my three favourite Black Library series and each element stands out as topping Ventris.

Though to be fair I've only read the novel's in the Ultramarines Omnibus so maybe there's something damning I'm missing in the later novels. Still, in what I've read Ventris has certainly survived very dangerous events, where a normal space marine captain might not, but he's the main character, so it's to be expected when he's faced with a problem that isn't quite winnable from a lore prespecitve he isn't just pulped, that would put an end to most Black Library series.

I don't think he just has blatant plot armor either (Spoilers, obviously). In Nightbringer the only out of the usual situtaion for a space marine to face would be encountering the Nightbringer. He doesn't exactly win this encounter (made the wrong choice if you ask me, should have brought the roof down on everyones head) and he's facing the Nightbringer at it's most vunerable state. Warriors of Ultramar never puts him in a situation that's all that unusual for a space marine captain. Dead Sky, Black Sun has, I think, the largest amount of plot armor, but it does take place while the enemy's occupied with a large army on it's front step, and most of the heavy lifting is done by a demonic entity.

I'm not saying Ventris has to be your favourite character (he certainly isn't mine), or that you even have to like him. Just if you don't like him, don't try to make it out as if Graham McNeil is the worst Black Library author when that spot is deserved so richly by another.

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post #27 of 74 (permalink) Old 03-24-10, 09:28 AM
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The problem with Uriel Ventris (and Pasanius, for that matter) is that they're not believable as Space Marines. They're too human. Uriel doesn't have the personality that lines up with what an Ultramarines Captain would be. He's too free-thinking, and willing to deviate from the Codex.

Space Marines, and particularly those from Codex Chapters that adhere strictly to the Codex, are noted as being almost obsessive in their duties. They're not necessarily capable of having the kind of complex relationships with their peers that Pasanius and Uriel display, much less the relationships that are displayed with humans.

Are the Uriel Ventris novels good reads? You bet. They're fun, even if the characters leave something to be desired. I read "Dead Sky, Black Sun" in one sitting just because I was so into it. It really is only in hindsight that I realize how cliche and unbelievable the characters are. As messed up as it sounds, Honsou is the most believable character in that book, purely because there's a complex reason for why he's as bitter and screwed in the head as he is. He's not just a walking cliche, although he's hardly what you'd expect of an Iron Warrior warsmith.

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post #28 of 74 (permalink) Old 03-24-10, 10:46 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by The Son of Horus View Post
The problem with Uriel Ventris (and Pasanius, for that matter) is that they're not believable as Space Marines. They're too human. Uriel doesn't have the personality that lines up with what an Ultramarines Captain would be. He's too free-thinking, and willing to deviate from the Codex.

Space Marines, and particularly those from Codex Chapters that adhere strictly to the Codex, are noted as being almost obsessive in their duties. They're not necessarily capable of having the kind of complex relationships with their peers that Pasanius and Uriel display, much less the relationships that are displayed with humans.

Are the Uriel Ventris novels good reads? You bet. They're fun, even if the characters leave something to be desired. I read "Dead Sky, Black Sun" in one sitting just because I was so into it. It really is only in hindsight that I realize how cliche and unbelievable the characters are. As messed up as it sounds, Honsou is the most believable character in that book, purely because there's a complex reason for why he's as bitter and screwed in the head as he is. He's not just a walking cliche, although he's hardly what you'd expect of an Iron Warrior warsmith.
Definitely this. Indeed if there is a defining attitude trait about the ultramarines it's that they will not deviate from the codex...and may even complain about other chapters who don't sleep with it like they do. Even Guilliman himself was like that, being a jerk to people who didn't like his own book.

I don't say this as an ultramarine hater...I like them, I think it gives them character...it's who they are.

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post #29 of 74 (permalink) Old 03-24-10, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by cafel View Post
Cherubael in the Eisenhorn series, though he is the villian, so I don't know if that counts.
Well Cherubael is the bad guy like you mentioned and hes also a Daemon Prince.

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The problem with Uriel Ventris (and Pasanius, for that matter) is that they're not believable as Space Marines. They're too human.
My thoughts exactly. Although im not qualified to judge the overall series but this was a problem for me in Nightbringer. (only ultrabook I have read)

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post #30 of 74 (permalink) Old 03-24-10, 12:09 PM
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Oh yea, like what? (Also try to give an example that doesn't include Ultramarines!)
The Bloodquest series in Warhammer monthly. The exiled BAs actually ended up vieing for control of a chaos warband IIRC, while they were still loyal.
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