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post #31 of 60 (permalink) Old 01-09-16, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by MontytheMighty View Post
You are dead wrong. ADB himself has described the Night of the Wolf as a "balanced" affair.

The Night of the Wolf was not an "overwhelming SW victory". I guarantee you that you have nothing to support that claim...and ADB himself disagrees with you.

Lorgar is agog that Angron misses Russ' point...Angron's men are incapable of intelligent, tactical thinking. Also, Lorgar wasn't there. He's simply expressing his opinion based on whatever conclusions he draws from Angron's simple account.

A good number of SW and WE die...Angron thinks more SW die, but Lorgar questions it. 100 SW surround the dueling primarchs. Angron clearly beats Russ into the dirt. Would Angron have been able to end Russ before 100 bolters stop him? Would those 100 bolters be able to track Angron without hitting Russ? We don't know. What we do know is that Angron simply lets Russ crawl off and start a speech.
I didn't at all get the impression that the Night of the Wolf was "balanced" from my reading of Betrayer. If ADB says it was, then it was, but I don't think it's shown that way. Russ sacrificed lots of men to teach Angron a valuable lesson (which he succeeded in doing; that Angron is too much of a mental ruin to comprehend it is neither here nor there). Angron lost lots of men to... well, to no end at all. I've never really understood the whole 'a source of pride to both Legions, but both secretly feared they'd lost' quote (my Betrayer's on loan, so I can't get the exact quote). For the Wolves, okay; they achieved in getting Angron surrounded and giving Russ a live example of the point he was trying to make, but feared they hadn't as Angron hadn't taken any notice of it. That's fairly believable as a 'we won and lost' kind of deal. For the World Eaters? They might have thought they lost because they fear that Russ had a good point after all, but why would they think they'd won? Especially as the battle was a "balanced" affair. I can understand Angron thinking he'd won it - that's the point - but Kharn and some of the others seem to have their heads screwed on enough to understand that mutual carnage with the Wolves isn't any kind of victory. Did the World Eaters as a whole truly think that trading punches with the Wolves to no outcome was a victory? I find it hard to believe.

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No...the Lion slashes Curze's throat, and Curze enters a deep coma, might have died but Sevatar psychically pulls him back to the light
Otherwise known as Curze not dying. Also, Curze absolutely slashes the Lion's throat; the Lord of the First has the scar in Savage Weapons to prove it.

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post #32 of 60 (permalink) Old 01-09-16, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by MontytheMighty View Post
You are dead wrong. ADB himself has described the Night of the Wolf as a "balanced" affair.

The Night of the Wolf was not an "overwhelming SW victory". I guarantee you that you have nothing to support that claim...and ADB himself disagrees with you.

Lorgar is agog that Angron misses Russ' point...Angron's men are incapable of intelligent, tactical thinking. Also, Lorgar wasn't there. He's simply expressing his opinion based on whatever conclusions he draws from Angron's simple account.
Well no. Lorgar does think the Wolves scored a victory. It's not just the lesson, he says:

Quote:
And yet, who won the battle?’
‘The World Eaters,’ Angron said without hesitation
.
Lorgar just stared at him for several seconds. ‘I appreciate that every living being must, by the nature of perception, understand and process life in a different way. But even for you, brother, this is achingly obtuse.’

‘You’re saying the Wolves won.’ Angron looked more amused than confused.

‘How can you not see it?’ Lorgar steepled his fingers, trying to rein in his own temper. ‘They won a victory worthy of engraving on their armour for all time. While you were glorying in your strength, Russ’s sons were loyal enough to come to him, to surround you both, to threaten your life while you stood at the vanguard of your own Legion. That may be the most comprehensive moment of outmanoeuvring in the history of the Legiones Astartes. It’s almost poetic in its elegance and emotional resonance. He proves his sons’ loyalty, while yours leave you to die. He proves the damage the Nails are doing to your Legion. He proves the tactical strength of taking an objective rather than fighting purely to kill. He spares your life in the hope you’ll see all of this, in a lesson it cost him heavily to teach you, and your reaction is to grin and claim yourself the victor.
It's very clear that Lorgar is of the opinion that Russ scored a massive victory and spared Angrons life. Whether you, ADB or Angron think otherwise, Lorgar doesn't, so yes, he does have something to support that claim.

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No...the Lion slashes Curze's throat, and Curze enters a deep coma, might have died but Sevatar psychically pulls him back to the light
Savage Weapons would seem to indicate otherwise actually.

"When he spoke, his voice was the grind of thunder at the horizon – it could never be mistaken for human, and the pale scar across his tanned throat didn’t help humanise his tone."

This being after his fight with Curze.
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post #33 of 60 (permalink) Old 01-12-16, 05:11 AM
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Well no. Lorgar does think the Wolves scored a victory. It's not just the lesson, he says:

It's very clear that Lorgar is of the opinion that Russ scored a massive victory and spared Angrons life. Whether you, ADB or Angron think otherwise, Lorgar doesn't, so yes, he does have something to support that claim.
Lorgar's opinion on the matter is no better than yours or mine. He has access to the same amount of info the reader has. Lorgar voices his opinion that Russ spared Angron...that does not mean Russ let Angron beat him into the dirt in front of the watching Rout. Major distinction. It means Russ didn't order his men to open fire on Angron after Angron let him crawl away.

As for it being a "massive victory", Lorgar more accurately describes it as an outmaneuvering, consistent with Russ' point that Angron's men are lost.

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Savage Weapons would seem to indicate otherwise actually.
Have you read Prince of Crows. The Lion definitively wins their 2nd fight. Curze enters a coma.

Anyway, here is ADB on Night of the Wolf:

Quote:
I'm not sure what good revisiting the Night of the Wolf would do, or what else it could show. You already have two primarchs, and the actions themselves, pointing out a clear lesson that Angron lost and looked silly by the standards of what they were trying to teach him. And you already have Angron considering he won the thing, too. It's about as balanced a situation as you'll ever see. You see what Russ intends. You see what Lorgar sees. You see how both Legions fight, and how both primarchs fight. You see how Angron perceives his Legion, and the fight itself. It's pretty comprehensive.
. . .
3. In addition to that, balance-wise, you don't want one Legion to completely dominate the other. And in this case, it's realistic that while one gets the moral high ground and the military victory, the other wins the duel and couldn't care less about the lesson in regards to his worldview. But even that has layers, in the sense that... was Russ holding back? He sure seems to be, given that he was trying to teach a lesson. Was Angron holding back? Maybe, given what we know about his lethality, and the fact Russ is still alive. Did Russ lose the plot and go crazy with anger, by being baited? Sure, maybe. Or maybe Angron's not as clever as he thinks he is (Lorgar seems to continually suggest Angron is an idiot for thinking he got the upper hand on Russ) and Russ's natural savagery was obviously misinterpreted by a swaggering Angron.
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post #34 of 60 (permalink) Old 01-12-16, 05:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MontytheMighty View Post
Anyway, here is ADB on Night of the Wolf:
That quote seems to be saying our ability to view it as readers is balanced, in that we get both sides laid out clearly, not that the outcome of the fight is balanced. He even says in that quote that Angron lost. In the second paragraph, he juxtaposes Angron winning the duel with the SW military victory. Calling it an outmaneuvering instead of a victory is also not really any different, as both mean that the Space Wolves, tactically speaking, had control of the situation.
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post #35 of 60 (permalink) Old 01-12-16, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by MontytheMighty View Post
Lorgar's opinion on the matter is no better than yours or mine. He has access to the same amount of info the reader has. Lorgar voices his opinion that Russ spared Angron...that does not mean Russ let Angron beat him into the dirt in front of the watching Rout. Major distinction. It means Russ didn't order his men to open fire on Angron after Angron let him crawl away.

As for it being a "massive victory", Lorgar more accurately describes it as an outmaneuvering, consistent with Russ' point that Angron's men are lost.


Have you read Prince of Crows. The Lion definitively wins their 2nd fight. Curze enters a coma.

Anyway, here is ADB on Night of the Wolf:
No. Lorgsr calls it a victory. He's utterly dumbfounded that Angron could think he had won. And whether you think Lorgars opinion is relevant or not, it still gives grounds for Midnight to believe Russ won, where as you said, guaranteed even, that he had nothing to base that on.

More to the point, from the quote you provided, ADB is saying that Russ won the battle, lost the duel, but won the battle.

And yes. I have read Prince of Crows, it's not relevant to what we are talking about, which is Curze cutting the Lions throat. Did you not read my quote from Savage Weapons or just ignore it? The Lion has a scar/faded wound of a cut across his neck.
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post #36 of 60 (permalink) Old 01-12-16, 12:06 PM
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If I recall correctly there was a discussion in one of the books between several of the Primarchs about who was the best. From that discussion it came across as though the Khan and Mortarion were the fore runners. I believe it was said that, in duels, the Khan was the best and I think Khan was saying something about how he knew everyones fighting style but Mortarion was a mystery and that made him the most dangerous.
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post #37 of 60 (permalink) Old 01-12-16, 12:18 PM
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If I recall correctly there was a discussion in one of the books between several of the Primarchs about who was the best. From that discussion it came across as though the Khan and Mortarion were the fore runners. I believe it was said that, in duels, the Khan was the best and I think Khan was saying something about how he knew everyones fighting style but Mortarion was a mystery and that made him the most dangerous.
Not quite.

Sanguinius, Fulgrim, the Khan and Mortarion are discussing it after Sanguinius mentions that people across the Imperium debate and bet on who would win. Fulgrim says he would happily fight the Khan, who believes he would win, as Fulgrim makes a show of his skills, letting everyone know how good he is, where as the Khan is an unknown, and he would win because he would fight to kill, where as Fulgrim would see it as a game, as he does everything. Mortarion then asks the Khan who would win out of the, to which the Khan doesn't know.
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post #38 of 60 (permalink) Old 01-13-16, 12:59 AM
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That quote seems to be saying our ability to view it as readers is balanced, in that we get both sides laid out clearly, not that the outcome of the fight is balanced.
He says he didn't want one legion to completely dominate the other

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Calling it an outmaneuvering instead of a victory is also not really any different, as both mean that the Space Wolves, tactically speaking, had control of the situation.
Victory is a vague term. Outmaneuvering is much more precise (a tactical victory). Victory could imply a SW on WE massacre, which Night of the Wolf very clearly was not


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No. Lorgsr calls it a victory. He's utterly dumbfounded that Angron could think he had won. And whether you think Lorgars opinion is relevant or not, it still gives grounds for Midnight to believe Russ won, where as you said, guaranteed even, that he had nothing to base that on
Lorgar also qualifies what he means by "victory". It doesn't necessarily mean that the SW would have wiped out the WE

Quote:
More to the point, from the quote you provided, ADB is saying that Russ won the battle, lost the duel, but won the battle.
Won a tactical victory by surrounding the enemy primarch. Does not necessarily mean the WE were doomed.

ADB also says that Russ did not necessarily hold back (though possible) and that Angron was not necessarily trying to kill Russ (possible as well...but I doubt it)

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Originally Posted by Angel of Blood View Post
And yes. I have read Prince of Crows, it's not relevant to what we are talking about, which is Curze cutting the Lions throat. Did you not read my quote from Savage Weapons or just ignore it? The Lion has a scar/faded wound of a cut across his neck.
By "cut" you mean "leave any sort of cut". Clearly the Lion was not bleeding to death in Savage Weapons. He was being choked more than anything else

When the Lion slashed open Curze's throat in Round 2, the latter went into a coma. I just find it strange to mention how Curze cut the Lion's throat (when the cut itself was not even close to life threatening and the one inflicted by the Lion clearly was)
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post #39 of 60 (permalink) Old 01-13-16, 03:42 AM
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He says he didn't want one legion to completely dominate the other
Right, which is why Angron's legion isn't exterminated. You can win, unambiguously, without "completely dominating." Seems like that's what ADB was getting at.

Quote:
Victory is a vague term. Outmaneuvering is much more precise (a tactical victory). Victory could imply a SW on WE massacre, which Night of the Wolf very clearly was not
Victory could mean that, but that doesn't mean it has to. That also doesn't mean that this isn't a victory just because it could have been a more extreme victory.
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post #40 of 60 (permalink) Old 01-13-16, 09:13 AM
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By "cut" you mean "leave any sort of cut". Clearly the Lion was not bleeding to death in Savage Weapons. He was being choked more than anything else

When the Lion slashed open Curze's throat in Round 2, the latter went into a coma. I just find it strange to mention how Curze cut the Lion's throat (when the cut itself was not even close to life threatening and the one inflicted by the Lion clearly was)
So? He still cut his throat, and enough to leave a mark on a Primarch days later. But again, so? It's irrelevant how life threatening the cut was, it's still a cut, and you were therefore wrong when you erroneously corrected the earlier post to say Curze hadn't done so.
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