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post #21 of 60 (permalink) Old 01-07-16, 06:39 PM
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3. Angron (beated Leman Russ and Guilliman)
Y'mean that time Russ let Angron beat him as to teach him that winning the war is more important than winning the battle?

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4. Fulgrim (perfect duellist, defeated an Avatar of Khaine)
Bending over an Avatar of Khaine and fucking it's candy ass like you're in a prison washroom is one of the basic entry requirements to get into the fluff, everyone does it. However, since Fulgrim has the highest Primarch kill count, even if one of them is by a poisoned sword after he turned into a giant daemon snake centaur thing, I won't say you're wrong.


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5. Leman Russ (defeated by Angron, beated Magnus)
Yeah, but he was covered in anti-psyker fetishes and accompanied by the Sisters of Silence when he fought Magnus, and he lost to Angron on purpose.

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6. Vulkan (beat Curze twice)
He beat Curze once that I know of, but Curze fought and killed him about a dozen times on Macragge and was only stopped by Matt Damon throwing a daemon at him.

The average ones

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7. Roboute Guilliman (defeated by Angron)
But beat 'enlightened' Lorgar like the red headed stepchild of a rented mule.

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10. Lion El'Jonson (defeated Curze)
Beats Curze in a fair fight, but when Curze fights how Curze fights, then he's only saved by Corswain stabbing Curze through the spine and even then, it's a draw. Then tries to double-team Curze with Roboute, and gets absolutely wrecked, only being saved by an arcane teleporter powered by pure, unadulterated bullshit.

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12. Ferrus Manus (killed by Fulgrim)
Chatted shit, did nothing of note, got wrecked.

The weak ones

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Konrad Curze (beaten by Vulkan and Lion El'Jonson, overcoming Corax)
Beats a weak Corax, so we won't count it, but beats Guilliman and the Lion at the same time, draws with Sanguinius (remember that Sanguinius projects a psychic aura that forces everyone in the vicinity to fall to their knees and suck his angelic dick over his amazing amazingness - even other Primarchs), beats Vulkan like the ass of a mule rented by a red-headed step child. Loses to the Lion one time. Also manages to stay awesome despite the best efforts of Black Library.

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15. Rogal Dorn (beaten by Curze)
No, no, I think you've made the mistake of thinking that Dorn's done anything ever. He doesn't lose a fight, he doesn't even have a fight. Curze jumps him for the crime of being a two-dimensional prick and near enough kills him with his nails and teeth.

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16. Magnus the Red (beaten by Leman Russ)
Implying that Russ ever accepts a fight he's not guaranteed to win?

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17. Alpharius (physically shorter than his brothers, likely beaten by Guilliman)
Nah, wait until the 30k series covers Eskrandor. There's not a snowball's chance in hell that Black Library will ever let the Alpha Legion ever lose anything ever. Also I assume he's the same size as a regular Primarch, he's just got a super power that lets him pretend to be an ordinary dude (Corax has invisibility and Mortarion can teleport, nothing would surprise me at this point)

If Black Library had a shred of consistency then it'd be an interesting discussion, but given that the Primarch's fighting abilities (hell, all of their abilities) can be summed up as 'whatever the current plot demands them to be', any Primarch could fight any other Primarch in a BL novel and we'd have absolutely no idea what the outcome would be (Lion and Guilliman fight Curze, and lose, but are saved by the power of friendship).

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post #22 of 60 (permalink) Old 01-07-16, 06:41 PM
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In both instances that people are referring to for Leman Russ being 'beaten', i think people are forgetting that in neither of those instances was Russ actually out to kill his brothers.

The Lion suckered punches him after Russ dropped his guard and started laughing at the absurdity of their squabble.

As for Angron, Russ was trying to confront his brother and stop him before Russ was sent officially to sanction him.

We have only seen Russ in full on Executioner mode once, and we all know the outcome of that. And it is hinted at more than once that it wasn't his first time to end a brother.

Russ doesn't enjoy being the Emperor's Executioner. He understands the need and that he is the only one that has the nature to do the task. But it isn't something that he takes pleasure in.

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post #23 of 60 (permalink) Old 01-07-16, 07:21 PM
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I actually believe Russ was simply more concerned with the battle as a whole rather than besting his brother Angron, who cared purely for the bragging right of beating the Wolf in single melee combat. The fight between the two was long and brutal which suggests Russ was not simply 'letting' his brother win. I think this is right as Angron's entire life has been devoted to melee combat, since childhood he has been forced to fight to the death in brutal gladiator pits, he embodies the perfect savage - if Russ is the Wolf, Angron is the fighting dog bred for exactly that, Angron is no tactical or strategic genius whatsoever and his brothers surely outclass him there, he even once said 'The quickest way to an enemy is a straight line'. Angron is however the most perfect warrior in close combat imo fluffwise, even his build and physicality come into play and match the typical traits of a fighter rather than a body builder or asthete like Fulgrim the 'Phoenician' - with massive upper body strength and vast shoulders, Angron is I would say 'Stockier' than most and likely a little shorter or at least his posture is very stooped and predatory - his build is top heavy, proving enormous strength and momentum when moving but losing the graceful finesse and probably balance seen by Sanguinius or Fulgrim through legs that have been given less attention - Angron fights with the top part of his already top-heavy body. Anyway I'm going off track my point being that I think Angron did indeed beat Russ alone fairly but it was one of Angron's closest fights hence why he glorifies his victory over Russ but ignores the fact that his force actually lost the battle and the Wolves had the two Primarchs surrounded by the end of the fight.
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post #24 of 60 (permalink) Old 01-07-16, 11:21 PM
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The feeling I had after reading Scars is that the Khan and his Terminators would have lost the fight against Mortarion and his Terminators if Mortarion didn't have to leave in order to save his whole fleet.
You're entitled to your feelings but I don't think it's suppprted by the text.

The Khan was more fatigued. Mortarion was more wounded and coughing up blood. It's hard to say whether Mortarion would have countered the Khan's final "limit break" strike.
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post #25 of 60 (permalink) Old 01-07-16, 11:27 PM
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Y'mean that time Russ let Angron beat him as to teach him that winning the war is more important than winning the battle?
Russ did not "let" Angron almost kill him in front of his men

Russ is not a fool. Letting Angron beat him would

1. Risk Russ' life against an angry madman
2. Give this angry madman an excuse to ignore his lesson...as Angron did. Angron thought he won because had beaten Russ in their duel and thus the battle around him didn't matter. Letting Angron beat him would weaken the lesson.

An enraged Russ charged a surprisingly lucid Angron...who thoroughly dominated their brawl and had the wits not to make an attempt to end Russ' life when Russ was at his mercy, crawling away from him.
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In both instances that people are referring to for Leman Russ being 'beaten', i think people are forgetting that in neither of those instances was Russ actually out to kill his brothers.
...and Angron was attempting to slay Russ?

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post #26 of 60 (permalink) Old 01-08-16, 03:56 PM
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Anyway I'm going off track my point being that I think Angron did indeed beat Russ alone fairly but it was one of Angron's closest fights hence why he glorifies his victory over Russ but ignores the fact that his force actually lost the battle and the Wolves had the two Primarchs surrounded by the end of the fight.
He doesn't ignore the fact that his force lost the battle because he doesn't believe they did. That's the whole point of the Night of the Wolf. Lorgar is agog that Angron can't see that the Night of the Wolf was an overwhelming Space Wolf victory. He says something about it being the greatest example of military application he's ever seen, or something to that effect.

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Russ did not "let" Angron almost kill him in front of his men

Russ is not a fool. Letting Angron beat him would

1. Risk Russ' life against an angry madman
I don't think Russ was in any great danger, being as Angron was totally surrounded by Space Wolves aiming right at him. Could he have made it through their fire and gotten to Russ? Maybe - Primarchs are pretty fast. Could he have killed Russ before the massed Space Wolf fire killed him? I would say absolutely not. Primarchs are hard as balls to kill, even by the hands of each other. Curze inflicted twelve wounds on Dorn, any single one of which would kill an Astartes outright, according to Shang. Curze cut the Lion's throat and repeatedly smashed his head into a stone floor and the Lion made it through with no lasting damage. Curze was stabbed through the spine and kept fighting; along with all of his other injuries inflicted by the Lion and Corswain, it still only put him in a coma with apparently no permanent damage. Could Angron inflict enough damage to put permanent hurt on Russ, even ignoring the possibility of Russ having a personal teleporter or other planned intervention, before the Wolves killed him? I very much doubt it.

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2. Give this angry madman an excuse to ignore his lesson...as Angron did. Angron thought he won because had beaten Russ in their duel and thus the battle around him didn't matter. Letting Angron beat him would weaken the lesson.
If Russ had won the duel, Angron wouldn't have been taught the lesson that to win the battle isn't to win the war - he'd have been taught that you can lose a battle and lose a war, which he probably knew already. Russ anticipated that Angron would have the shred of sense to learn from the Night of the Wolf - even Lorgar, who knew Angron much better than Russ, was absolutely aghast that Angron was obtuse enough to think that he could have possibly won the Night of the Wolf. Russ underestimated the incredible degree of Angron's mental damage, and thought he might still have the faintest glimmer of strategy left in his head. As it turns out, the Nails had already ruined Angron beyond salvation, and hence the Night didn't work out as Russ hoped.

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post #27 of 60 (permalink) Old 01-08-16, 05:51 PM
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Fear to Tread? for Sanguinius I meant
well I hoped Signus Prime opened his eyes and that we could now see some manifestation of the BA dark side unleashed on the traitor legions, allas it seems. In recent years quite a few legions have been fleshed out considerably (by good authors) and have been given a personality or whatever you want to call it.
E.g. Graham with the TS, EC
Dan with the UM/ AL / SW and from what I read on the forums also with the IF
Chris with the WS, SW and also IH I found
WB/WE/NL/SOH (and to some extent gray knights and DA) by ADB (I liked his short on the UM, refreshing)
IW to some extent by Graham (storm of iron still being his best description),
Salamanders got a lot of attention and a personality, not so much to my liking.
Gav did less of a job (my personal opinion) with the RG and DA (although I enjoyed his last DA book)
The BA (together with e.g. DG) can definitely use some love from a good author, now it seems they are just UM in red. Most of the legions have a distinct personality, TS are wizards, NL are murderers, AI are spies,.... I would speculate, that what makes the BA BAs is their bipolarity between their aristocratic erudite art thingies and their dark 'i want to dress with your intestines' side. It would be greatly appreciated, by me at least, if this were to be fleshed out more where we see both sides confronting the other legions.
There is this scene during the siege where Angron and Sanguinus do a stare contest, I would like to see his evolution to this point from the primarch that spared Curze.
Now it would be unfair to state that this has not yet been done (I ignore James Swallow his contributions), e.g. Guy Haley in death of Integrity, David Annandale (e.g. Mephiston), ADB in Gaius point and the chaplain-Abbadon story (I have not yet red blackmane, too expensive), Graham in vengeful spirit (liked that one, made the distinction with the WE more clear).
But the BA deserve their betrayer, hopefully the siege will give us that.
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post #28 of 60 (permalink) Old 01-08-16, 08:23 PM
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Curze inflicted twelve wounds on Dorn, any single one of which would kill an Astartes outright, according to Shang. Curze cut the Lion's throat and repeatedly smashed his head into a stone floor and the Lion made it through with no lasting damage. Curze was stabbed through the spine and kept fighting; along with all of his other injuries inflicted by the Lion and Corswain, it still only put him in a coma with apparently no permanent damage.
I have read the wrong fucking HH novels

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post #29 of 60 (permalink) Old 01-08-16, 10:11 PM
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I have read the wrong fucking HH novels
Source on those are The Dark King, The Lightning Tower (which honestly is one story split in twain rather than two shorts) and Prince of Crows. I bought the relevant anthologies just for those stories...

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post #30 of 60 (permalink) Old 01-09-16, 03:15 PM
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Lorgar is agog that Angron can't see that the Night of the Wolf was an overwhelming Space Wolf victory.
You are dead wrong. ADB himself has described the Night of the Wolf as a "balanced" affair.

The Night of the Wolf was not an "overwhelming SW victory". I guarantee you that you have nothing to support that claim...and ADB himself disagrees with you.

Lorgar is agog that Angron misses Russ' point...Angron's men are incapable of intelligent, tactical thinking. Also, Lorgar wasn't there. He's simply expressing his opinion based on whatever conclusions he draws from Angron's simple account.

A good number of SW and WE die...Angron thinks more SW die, but Lorgar questions it. 100 SW surround the dueling primarchs. Angron clearly beats Russ into the dirt. Would Angron have been able to end Russ before 100 bolters stop him? Would those 100 bolters be able to track Angron without hitting Russ? We don't know. What we do know is that Angron simply lets Russ crawl off and start a speech.

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Curze cut the Lion's throat and repeatedly smashed his head into a stone floor and the Lion made it through with no lasting damage.
No...the Lion slashes Curze's throat, and Curze enters a deep coma, might have died but Sevatar psychically pulls him back to the light
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