Who can beat Curze in melee combat? - Page 2 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
Black Library Fiction Here is where you can discuss your favourite Black Library publications and graphic novels. If it's published by Black Library it goes here.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #11 of 60 (permalink) Old 01-03-16, 09:10 PM
Junior Member
 
Gabriel Chase's Avatar
Gabriel Chase's Flag is: United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 15
Reputation: 1
Default

I dunno which of the other primarchs would take him on after his super-duper smoke ninja powers in The Unremembered Empire, but I'd certainly fight him for a tenner! Or a bowl of soup.
Gabriel Chase is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #12 of 60 (permalink) Old 01-03-16, 11:40 PM
Senior Member
 
DelvarusThePitFighter's Avatar
DelvarusThePitFighter's Flag is: United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: UK
Posts: 278
Reputation: 9
Default

Guilliman bests Lorgar and Alpharius
Fulgrim bests Ferrus Manus
Angron bests Guilliman and Russ
Curze bests Vulkan? and repeatedly fights the Lion. Also bests Corax but that's kinda unfair to say
Corax bests Lorgar
I know there are others, I've no doubt forgotten a few but those are the main ones I've read about that stick in my memory
DelvarusThePitFighter is offline  
post #13 of 60 (permalink) Old 01-07-16, 09:58 AM
Senior Member
 
MontytheMighty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,764
Reputation: 9
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CorvusGuardXIX View Post
Curze says in Pharos that he can beat most of the primarchs including Sanguinius
Leman Russ thinks he can beat Traitor Horus

"thinks"

The Lion has beaten Curze. It was a bit more than "badly wounded". The Lion was standing, saluting a fallen foe.

Curze was gushing blood from his throat before entering a coma. That's called losing

Last edited by MontytheMighty; 01-07-16 at 10:01 AM.
MontytheMighty is offline  
 
post #14 of 60 (permalink) Old 01-07-16, 11:28 AM
Senior Member
alt-f4's Flag is: Belgium
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Mons (Belgium)
Posts: 117
Reputation: 1
Default

I personally think that a lot of Primarchs would overcome Curze in pure melee duel (Vulkan did it twice while being weakened, for instance, bare hands and with his hammer).

If I had to make the ranking of Primarchs in that matter, I would split them up in 3 groups :

The best ones

1. Horus (seen as the best by all the others, he barely defeated the Emperor himself when boosted by Chaos)
2. Sanguinius (defeated a great Bloodthirster at Signus Prime)
3. Angron (beated Leman Russ and Guilliman)
4. Fulgrim (perfect duellist, defeated an Avatar of Khaine)
5. Leman Russ (defeated by Angron, beated Magnus)
6. Vulkan (beated Curze twice)

The average ones

7. Roboute Guilliman (defeated by Angron)
8. Mortarion (slightly overcoming the Khan)
9. Jagatai Khan (closely losing against Mortarion)
10. Lion El'Jonson (defeated Curze)
11. Perturabo (weaker than the "elevated" Fulgrim)
12. Ferrus Manus (killed by Fulgrim)

The weak ones

13. Konrad Curze (beaten by Vulkan and Lion El'Jonson, overcoming Corax)
14. Corax (better than Lorgar, slightly weaker than Curze)
15. Rogal Dorn (beaten by Curze)
16. Magnus the Red (beaten by Leman Russ)
17. Alpharius (physically shorter than his brothers, likely beaten by Guilliman)
18. Lorgar (beaten by Corax and Guilliman)

The Serrated Flame : a First Heretics army

- Primordial Truth is Humanity's only salvation -
alt-f4 is offline  
post #15 of 60 (permalink) Old 01-07-16, 03:28 PM
Senior Member
 
MontytheMighty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,764
Reputation: 9
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by alt-f4 View Post
8. Mortarion (slightly overcoming the Khan)
9. Jagatai Khan (closely losing against Mortarion)
In what world is this true?

Also, if you're gonna say Curze beat Dorn, then you'd have to say the Lion beat Russ
MontytheMighty is offline  
post #16 of 60 (permalink) Old 01-07-16, 04:26 PM
The Emperor Protects
 
Angel of Blood's Avatar
Angel of Blood's Flag is: Wales
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 5,262
Reputation: 41
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by alt-f4 View Post
I personally think that a lot of Primarchs would overcome Curze in pure melee duel (Vulkan did it twice while being weakened, for instance, bare hands and with his hammer).

If I had to make the ranking of Primarchs in that matter, I would split them up in 3 groups :

The best ones

1. Horus (seen as the best by all the others, he barely defeated the Emperor himself when boosted by Chaos)
2. Sanguinius (defeated a great Bloodthirster at Signus Prime)
3. Angron (beated Leman Russ and Guilliman)
4. Fulgrim (perfect duellist, defeated an Avatar of Khaine)
5. Leman Russ (defeated by Angron, beated Magnus)
6. Vulkan (beated Curze twice)

The average ones

7. Roboute Guilliman (defeated by Angron)
8. Mortarion (slightly overcoming the Khan)
9. Jagatai Khan (closely losing against Mortarion)
10. Lion El'Jonson (defeated Curze)
11. Perturabo (weaker than the "elevated" Fulgrim)
12. Ferrus Manus (killed by Fulgrim)

The weak ones

13. Konrad Curze (beaten by Vulkan and Lion El'Jonson, overcoming Corax)
14. Corax (better than Lorgar, slightly weaker than Curze)
15. Rogal Dorn (beaten by Curze)
16. Magnus the Red (beaten by Leman Russ)
17. Alpharius (physically shorter than his brothers, likely beaten by Guilliman)
18. Lorgar (beaten by Corax and Guilliman)
Angron beat Guilliman? You mean Angron and Lorgar beat Guilliman, who was still holding his own against both of them for a while.

As Monty said for 8 and 9, where do you get that Mortarion slightly best the Khan.

How is the Lion average?

Also for 11. Whilst I agree that Perterabo isn't amongst the top tier, he had been drained of all his energy by the stone Fulgrim 'gifted' him beforehand. His actual life force was being sucked into the stone for Fulgrimd use.

14. Saying Corax was in anyway beaten by Curze is also one of those that gets floated around. Corax had just brutally beaten and envicerated Lorgar, and would have killed him had Curze not intervened. Corax is smart, he's already been fighting desperately on Istvaan V even before the second wave, he's then slaughtered his way through the Gal Vorbak and Lorgsr, but now is up against a fresh Curze and can see his men getting slaughtered. It's either pull back and help his men, or fight Curze, who is fresh, watch his men get slaughtered more and have Lorgar rejoin the fight if it takes too long.

As for Alpharius, it's very, very unlikely he was killed by Guilliman. Everything about Eskrsdor screams Alpha Legion manipulations. But more telling, the whole account was told by an Inquistor who later fled after being suspected of being an Alpha Legion agent. The Ultramarines themselves are sceptical about Eskrador.

I would place both the Khan and the Lion in the upper tier as well.
Angel of Blood is offline  
post #17 of 60 (permalink) Old 01-07-16, 04:41 PM
Senior Member
alt-f4's Flag is: Belgium
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Mons (Belgium)
Posts: 117
Reputation: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MontytheMighty View Post
In what world is this true?
The feeling I had after reading Scars is that the Khan and his Terminators would have lost the fight against Mortarion and his Terminators if Mortarion didn't have to leave in order to save his whole fleet.

I'll read it again soon and see if I feel different afterwards.

Quote:
Also, if you're gonna say Curze beat Dorn, then you'd have to say the Lion beat Russ
From what I know about the Lion and Russ, it looks more like a quarrel than a real fight (but that comes from the global W40K background, not the novels). Dorn has clearly been beaten down by Curze, who dominated the fight until he alone (Fulgrim presence in the area maybe helped it, though) decided to put an end to it.

The Serrated Flame : a First Heretics army

- Primordial Truth is Humanity's only salvation -
alt-f4 is offline  
post #18 of 60 (permalink) Old 01-07-16, 05:17 PM
Senior Member
alt-f4's Flag is: Belgium
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Mons (Belgium)
Posts: 117
Reputation: 1
Default

I don't think there is an undoubtful ranking between all Primarchs, even in a specific domain. This is just my own feeling, and the difference between many of them could just be a tie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel of Blood View Post
Angron beat Guilliman? You mean Angron and Lorgar beat Guilliman, who was still holding his own against both of them for a while.
Lorgar is one of the weakest (maybe "the" weakest) in melee (he hit an unaware Guilliman to the ground, but I'm pretty sure he would have lost a real ensuing fight).

And I'm also pretty sure that Angron beats Guilliman, because the melee is his key domain. Guilliman strategy and thinking is not much use against blind fury at close quarters (Angron would have crushed Kor Phaeron in less than 2 moves, according to me).

Quote:
As Monty said for 8 and 9, where do you get that Mortarion slightly best the Khan.

How is the Lion average?
Because, for me, he's not in the top 6 (but maybe close to it, like Guilliman, and maybe above the Khan and Mortarion ... it's difficult to make a real hierarchy between those of the average group).

Quote:
Also for 11. Whilst I agree that Perterabo isn't amongst the top tier, he had been drained of all his energy by the stone Fulgrim 'gifted' him beforehand. His actual life force was being sucked into the stone for Fulgrimd use.
Sure. But Fulgrim (and his legion) is a duellist by nature, where Perturabo is a tactician (playing chess or the wargame of the attack of Terra, I would say the opposite, of course).

Quote:
14. Saying Corax was in anyway beaten by Curze is also one of those that gets floated around. Corax had just brutally beaten and envicerated Lorgar, and would have killed him had Curze not intervened. Corax is smart, he's already been fighting desperately on Istvaan V even before the second wave, he's then slaughtered his way through the Gal Vorbak and Lorgsr, but now is up against a fresh Curze and can see his men getting slaughtered. It's either pull back and help his men, or fight Curze, who is fresh, watch his men get slaughtered more and have Lorgar rejoin the fight if it takes too long.
How higher would you put Corax in such ranking, then ? Above Curze, I would agree ... they are in the same category for me : good fighter, but their true strength relies out of the direct hand to hand fight (stealth, hit and run, ambush, ...).

Quote:
As for Alpharius, it's very, very unlikely he was killed by Guilliman. Everything about Eskrsdor screams Alpha Legion manipulations. But more telling, the whole account was told by an Inquistor who later fled after being suspected of being an Alpha Legion agent. The Ultramarines themselves are sceptical about Eskrador.
Who knows ?

What remains is that Alpharius, by nature, is not oriented towards direct close combat, and that he is shorter and thinner than the other Primarchs, which helps his Space Marines to pretend being him. Height and weight are both key assets in melee.

Quote:
I would place both the Khan and the Lion in the upper tier as well.
Above which Primarch of this upper tier ?

The Serrated Flame : a First Heretics army

- Primordial Truth is Humanity's only salvation -
alt-f4 is offline  
post #19 of 60 (permalink) Old 01-07-16, 05:52 PM
Senior Member
 
DelvarusThePitFighter's Avatar
DelvarusThePitFighter's Flag is: United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: UK
Posts: 278
Reputation: 9
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by piemelke View Post
Although I found Curze in UE rather over the top,
based upon betrayer and the fight Russ vs Angron, I would say Angron definitely has an edge,
The Khan was convincing against Mortarion, I think he won on points,
Fulgrim got help from a Daemonic sword...
but these are rather pointless discussions as in the end Kharn the naysayer is right, Rupert would have beaten them all, if he was not suffering from cmd
we have heard about the martial prowess of Sanguinus and his wrath, it's about time we actually get to read about it
Fear to Tread? for Sanguinius I meant
DelvarusThePitFighter is offline  
post #20 of 60 (permalink) Old 01-07-16, 05:55 PM
Senior Member
 
DelvarusThePitFighter's Avatar
DelvarusThePitFighter's Flag is: United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: UK
Posts: 278
Reputation: 9
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel of Blood View Post
Angron beat Guilliman? You mean Angron and Lorgar beat Guilliman, who was still holding his own against both of them for a while.

As Monty said for 8 and 9, where do you get that Mortarion slightly best the Khan.

How is the Lion average?

Also for 11. Whilst I agree that Perterabo isn't amongst the top tier, he had been drained of all his energy by the stone Fulgrim 'gifted' him beforehand. His actual life force was being sucked into the stone for Fulgrimd use.

14. Saying Corax was in anyway beaten by Curze is also one of those that gets floated around. Corax had just brutally beaten and envicerated Lorgar, and would have killed him had Curze not intervened. Corax is smart, he's already been fighting desperately on Istvaan V even before the second wave, he's then slaughtered his way through the Gal Vorbak and Lorgsr, but now is up against a fresh Curze and can see his men getting slaughtered. It's either pull back and help his men, or fight Curze, who is fresh, watch his men get slaughtered more and have Lorgar rejoin the fight if it takes too long.

As for Alpharius, it's very, very unlikely he was killed by Guilliman. Everything about Eskrsdor screams Alpha Legion manipulations. But more telling, the whole account was told by an Inquistor who later fled after being suspected of being an Alpha Legion agent. The Ultramarines themselves are sceptical about Eskrador.

I would place both the Khan and the Lion in the upper tier as well.

Thank you! Couldn't have said it better myself although I personally wonder If Girlyman did kill Alpharius but that's a bit of a grey area
DelvarusThePitFighter is offline  
Reply

  Lower Navigation
Go Back   Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums > Fiction, Art and Roleplay Game Discussion > Black Library Fiction

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome