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Enough of Istvaan

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#1 · (Edited)
Last week I was sitting in a meeting* of all the Horus Heresy authors as they discussed the over arching storyline for HH and what new stories they could give us.

Christian Dunn, Laurie Goulding, Nick Kyme and Lindsey Priestley were sitting in their thrones at the head of the table. The rest of the authors sat along both sides of the table.

Laurie Goulding was the first to speak.
"Ladies and Gentlemen, I am glad we could all get together, in spite of our busy schedules, to discuss the future of the Horus Heresy series. We have some exciting ideas to discuss with you all. We would like start by congratulating Nick Kyme for his stellar new novel, Scorched Earth.

This is the blurb we're putting on the website, 'Nearly a quarter of a million loyal Space Marines lost their lives on Isstvan V – the Dropsite Massacre lasted only a few hours, and yet the Iron Hands, Raven Guard and Salamanders were slaughtered by those they had once called kin.'

I think you'll all agree, this is exciting stuff and exactly what we need to be making more of"



Nick smiles and moves in closer to the table with his hands clasped together.
"Laurie is right", he said, looking into the eyes of the surrounding authors, "And now I have the unpleasant task of reprimanding several of you. David Annandale, Graham McNeill, Dan Abnett, you are all great writers, but you have failed us. You have failed us greatly and it is at this meeting that we will discuss how to move ahead in our new direction".

The room became thick with hesitation and confusion. Dan, with a look of total vexation, was the first to speak, "I don't understand. How have we failed? Our stories were loved by our readers, they sold well and we think we did a great job progressing the story line".

Nick Kyme bit hard on his lip, glaring at Dan with a murderous rage. It was at that moment that Laurie put his hand on Nick's shoulder in order to calm him.

"Progressing the story line? Hah. You speak as though you are doing something noble and yet it is right here that you have failed." mocked Laurie. "You all failed because your novels failed to include Istvaan in any way. You let your childish desires move the plot on too far. For whom do you work? This is Games Workshop, we do not progress plot lines. Why do you think the 40k series is perpetually stuck in M41.999? We do many things, but progressing a story arch is NOT ONE OF THEM!"

Stunned, Dan fell back into his chair.

Nick looked around and drank from a mug of tea before continuing, "We have already covered Istvaan from the perspective of the Emperors Children, the Raven Guard, the Salamanders, the Iron Hands and also in multiple short novellas. We have dozens of stories telling the exact same story from different perspectives and we have no desire to stop now, not when there are so many more opportunities open to us.

We may have covered most of the legions, but what about their support staff? We could have dozens of stories featuring members of the human support staff. Imagine a story about a chef in one of the nameless companies and how he views the battle. We could even take things in an abstract way and show the battle from the perspective of a rock or a bullet. Imagine how exciting that would be! We already published a story about the history of a knife. How about a story talking about a bullets journey through Istvaan and all that it saw. We certainly haven't discussed the death of Ferras Manus enough. We could publish at least 5 or 6 more stories about Ferrus dying but from a multitude of angles.

The fact is, ladies and gentlemen, we plan to set the next 35 Horus Heresy stories in and around the events of Istvaan. Lets face it, we don't have much material to work with. We have Istvaan, Calth and then it's straight on to the siege of Terra."


It was at that point that Graham McNeill stood up, and with a slight waiver in his voice pleaded, "We are authors. Creative writers. We will make up the material. We will create the stories which fill the gaps between Istvaan, Calth and Terra. I don't understand why we have to make endless stories about a battle which has been written about to the point of tedium. Do any of our readers want to read about Istvaan any more? Surely the events which took place there have been described in enough detail."

Graham fell back suddenly from the force of Nick's violent kick to the head.

"NO! You wretched scribe. You putrid scrivener of prose. NO! The readers are not tired of Istvaan. They call out for more. They don't want to see the story progress to Terra because they are scared. They are scared that the stories will reach a climax and they will no longer be able to shower us with their money as they buy our overpriced hardback novels. Do you want them to cry? DO YOU?!

And once we've finished with Istvaan, we have such sights to show you in Calth. Imagine, hundred of short stories about the tunnel warfare on that radioactive planet! With Istvaan and Calth alone we could keep the series going for another 34 years. It will be beautiful."



Christian Dunn slowly stood to his feet, glanced around the room with a smile and said, "So, do we all understand? We are not to progress the story in any way and are to release endless stories about how depressed the legions feel about Istvaan. Dan, Graham, David, I hope to see some more appropriate stories from you all. Perhaps a story from the perspective of a Iron Warriors soldier watching that battle from the walls. That will be exciting, wont it?"

The meeting adjourned and the writers left in a stunned silence.

*Note: I have never sat in a meeting of the Horus Heresy authors.





TLDR: Jesus Christ am I bored of them retelling the story of Istvaan from every possible angle. If they're not retelling it directly, they are constantly referencing it and describing it in small flashbacks. Am I alone in this or would anyone else like to see the story arch progress a little further?
 
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#4 ·
I would say that this was indeed the funniest I've read in a while.

And yes surely you could say "Stop read them!" But the problem is that they've stuck on this point and aren't writing anything worth of reading, when they could devote time to write something new. So there isn't anything else to read in the series. And me personaly who has devoted many hours and dollars to it, want to see a satisfacory end to it and not milked out storylines. I would say Calth is close to being milked as well.

And I'm saying these complaints only because I care for the series and hope they will get back on track. :)
 
#5 ·
And I'm saying these complaints only because I care for the series and hope they will get back on track. :)
Exactly why I also care.

Now, I know that it's fiction and as such it also doesn't need to follow certain laws of reality, but another big issue I am finding is what I call the 'escalation issue'.

Remember back to Horus Rising when Ignace Karkasy is looking across the city and watches the enormous Titan standing in the distance? I got this wonderful feeling of scale and power. This one giant could end whole armies. Also, with the heavy use of 'normal' people, it gave a wonderful contrast to the space marines and made them seem that much more impressive.

Now, skip forward to Vengeful Spirit and we have a clear example of the 'escalation issue'.
Slowly, through the series progression the battles have needed to out do the battles of the previous books right until the point where we no longer have a couple of Titans fighting, but we now have 20 or 30 fighting. These epic war machines which supposedly take decades to manufacture are being thrown around and destroyed in a single battle. In my mind they lose their stature when they are discarded in such a nonchalant way.

In some of the space battles we see multitudes of battlecruisers explode. These are ships which have crews in the tens of thousands and take generations (I would assume 50+ years) to construct.
And yet in the next novel the legions are back with another expendable fleet.
Horus had already culled a large number of his forces in Istvaan and then in Vengeful Spirit he's suffering enormous casualties. At the current rate of attrition, by the time they get to Terra, they'll have a single squad of 20 Legionaries trying to knock down the walls of the Imperial Palace.

I no longer feel connected or concerned about the battles won and lost by the legions when I know that in the next novel they will have magically acquired battleships, tanks, titans and soldiers from nowhere to easily replace their losses and throw back into the maelstrom.

I enjoyed Vengeful Spirit. It didn't end how I wanted it to and it wasn't the best book in the series, but it at least reminded us about the Sons of Horus. Damnation of Pythos was rather uninteresting for me, but that's mainly because I dislike the Iron Hands (who seem to get a lot of book time at the moment)

I personally loved the jokes about the White Scars, essentially acknowledging that GW has, in the past decades, given them next to zero back history or character. Admittedly it wasn't a fantastic book, but hell, there are not other White Scars novels to compare it to. I'd like to see more from them.

But no, they weren't at Istvaan or Calth, so we'll probably never hear from them again.
I'd just like to see them push the story forwards a little and address the issue of military attrition the Rebels must be facing. We hear a lot about the shattered Loyalist forces and how they're struggling to fight on effectively, but since we've seen numerous Rebel defeats, we've not even seen a hint that it may be affecting them. It would be nice to see them address the issue of dwindling manpower.

We've been getting a lot of compilations recently and while some of them are really fun (I'm looking at you Sevatar) others are utterly painful to get through. I forget the name of the short story, but it was about the Alpha Legion and was written in the style of a technical report. It mimicked the style of a really dull report so perfectly that it was too tedious to finish.

I know it's very easy to say, "Just don't read them", but I, like many of you, have become very invested in the characters and the story. It feels very much like they hit a hurdle in the story arch back in 2014 and they don't really know where to go next. So now they just put together lots of anthologies and the odd novel which doesn't really progress anything.

Look at 2013! Betrayer, Vulkan Lives, Scars, Unremembered Empire and the anthologies of Imperial Truth and Mark of Calth. I really enjoyed all of those books.

Now look at 2014. Vengeful Spirit and Damnation of Pythos being the only full novels. I've already given my opinion of those. Sedition's Gate, Legacies of Betrayal Death and Defiance...well, there were a few short stories I liked from each, but anthologies just don't compare with a nice meaty novel. It's like going to a restaurant and only being able to order canapés when all you really want is a nice big steak.

I hope they find some focus soon.
 
#13 ·
I envisioned a bookshelf in my home dedicated to the masterpiece of "the horus heresy", well that wont be happening, and as much as I want to continue buying the books because of a general interest in the story and the books I have already got, the quality has turned to shit, never mind istvaan, enough of (never thought I'd ever think this let alone type it) the heresy
 
#15 ·
This struck a chord. I had a bookshelf in my living room with the series on it, was looking forward to having the lot up there. Quality and format delivery got so bad I gave up, dumped the 30+ things I had haphazardly on shelves in my spare room, and then put up a telly where the shelves were.

What a disappointment the HH turned into in a such a short time.
 
#14 ·
I've gone from being one of the strongest supporters of the Heresy series, to a simply jaded and tired one. I've not read or heard a good novel since......Scars? It's all just become very meh. And like yourself, I am sick to death of Istvaan and Calth. Seeing how much Calth features for next years releases made me audibly groan in exasperation.

I'm just not excited to read the novels anymore. I used to get them on the day of release, sometimes I'd buy both the hardback and the ebook format so that I could read it straight away and still have the hard copy as well. I haven't bought one in a very long time now though however. I'm still reading them via 'other means' shall we say. But they're all just mediocre and tedious now. There's no excitement, thrill or anticipation in the series anymore.

Then we get the likes of Kyme endlessly writing the Salamanders and making glaring mistakes in his novels, like the latest disaster Deathfire, in which he completely fails to comprehend where in the galaxy his characters are, where the places they are going or coming from are, or indeed and details about the Ruinstorm that features so heavily.

I'll keep reading the series, grudgingly though i'll admit. I've read too much to not see it through. But until Abnett, Wraight or ADB released novels again, then I won't be rushing to buy them (or buying them at all for that matter) or reading them with any enthusiasm.
 
#18 · (Edited)
TLDR: Jesus Christ am I bored of them retelling the story of Istvaan from every possible angle. If they're not retelling it directly, they are constantly referencing it and describing it in small flashbacks. Am I alone in this or would anyone else like to see the story arch progress a little further?[/quote]

starts a slow clap. That was amusing, thanks. I eagerly await the progression of the storyline but it looks like some changing times with authors and work loads so hopefully we get some more works pumped out. However, I haven't seen an Isstvan story in some time. Scorched Earth got wide release in June or July but the limited editions are 18 months prior to mass release, it seems. Good to know.

I'm not unhappy with the series though and curious why those who think the quality has turned to crap say that? Stagnant stories, writing styles, ready for da All-ORKZ Channel?
 
#19 ·
We have 18 active legions, and a significant amount of them joined in on Istvaan. Seems to me that they are trying to give the viewpoint of everyone present, as its where Horus openly declared his treachery instead of feigning loyalty anylonger. That is why I feel it have so much airtime compared to the other battles.
 
#23 ·
After looking through the FW books quite a few times, I can say the Traitor Legions has lost all around 20,000 each after Isstvan V, so there are still a huge bunt left fighting. The Salamanders and Raven Guard are all spent, and there isn't much more to say about them other than rehashing old stories we already know. After Vulkan is returned to Nocturne, Nick Kyme should be done with them.

There is much to still explore of the galaxy I agree. The problem is that the focus is put on unnecessary things. I'm curently reading TUE, and with the exception of an over-powered Konrad Curze it's quite good. Even Vulkan has come across and potentially interesting.

Focus on the Legions moving toward Terra, Magnus decision, the fall of the Death Guard, the hinted crack in the Alpha Legion,the Lions return to Caliban, Lorgars ascension to daemonhood, Sanguinius and the Khans path towards Terra. Those are just a few suggestions.
 
#24 ·
After looking through the FW books quite a few times, I can say the Traitor Legions has lost all around 20,000 each after Isstvan V, so there are still a huge bunt left fighting. The Salamanders and Raven Guard are all spent, and there isn't much more to say about them other than rehashing old stories we already know. After Vulkan is returned to Nocturne, Nick Kyme should be done with them.
The problem with gauging legion sizes is that often GW/BL provide contradictory numbers.
We know that The Thousand Sons were reduced to 1,000 after Prospero.

There's actually another thread about Legion sizes on this forum.
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=118716

Taking the information there, The Death Guard purged roughly 31,000 at Istvaan, which would leave them with around 61,000. But this doesn't take into account how many pro-Horus Death Guard died fighting the loyalists. I think we can assume that it was several thousand. Potentially the DG could be lower than 50,000.

Emperor's Children are said to have lost 50,000 at Istvaan, leaving them with 60,000.

But of course, we're never given consistent figures and books contradict other books.
What we do know is that Alpha Legion has between 1 and a million legionaries. :grin:
 
#25 ·
Keep in mind that some of the figures the books give are casualties rather than outright losses. Then remember the technology available for the time, where the legions are capable of rapid acceleration in recruitment with significantly greater resources. (Remember that Luther had gotten the process down to a few years and that was only with the resources of Caliban.)
 
#26 ·
A fair comment indeed, and you're certainly right about the casualties. But my original point still stands.

Sure, lets say that the heretics go to a few planets and take the entire population and turn them into space marines in the space of 2 or 3 years. Now they all have marines coming out of their ass. They have a billion marines per legion.

Then lets say that they can build battle cruisers in the space of 2 months. Sure, they used to take decades to build, but now they have magic stuff and can poop them out without a thought. All those tanks they lost? No problem! They'll go to Tanks'R'Us and pick up some new ones. The logistics of moving that many tanks and men through the warp? Not a problem, the Heretics control the warp. You want 20 new Titans to replace the ones lost on Molech? Give me 5 minutes and I'll have you back to full strength.

Lets not also forget that although the Dark Angels have training and implantation down to 2 years, it doesn't mean that they can accept any kid. As far as I'm aware (unless I missed it in the novels) the percentage of people who can become an Astartes is still quite small.

My entire point was that this lowers the stakes. If every death suffered can easily be replaced by 20 new marines, who cares? Why would I care about the battles when they are utterly meaningless because death has no real impact (except for the loyalists)?
Oh, the Word Bearers just lost 90,000 troops. Ahhh no worries, they'll have them all back next week.

Even talking about the average non-enhanced soldier. The scale of these battles is beyond what we experienced in our history with thousands dying each day. After 6 months of fighting, the Soviet Union had lost over 4 million soldiers. Over 20 million over the space of 4 years. Now, with HH we're talking about war on a galactic level with millions dying in single battles.
The Soviet Union lost about 80% of all men aged 18-25. Hard to replace those soldiers. Eventually you're going to have a shortage of people to recruit from.
Imagine a HH battle! Millions are dying in the space of weeks. Yes, there are Hive worlds, but how many? How many are in a state of readiness and how many are still rebuilding after getting pwnd back when the Emperor was bringing them into the Imperium? It would be interesting to see concern from commanders on both sides of the conflict that they have lost all their veteran units and now have armies made up of kids.

It would also be interesting to see some propaganda involved in pacifying the serfs. We had a short story recently about a navigator on a heretic ship who (I wont spoil it) has a conflict of conscience about turning against the Emperor. There are surely more out there who would attempt to sabotage their ships. I find it weird that all the crews went along with the heresy without too much trouble. I expect there was some purging going on, but surely when daemons start popping up on your ship you're going to have second thoughts about whether this is really a good idea.
I also have no idea how Emperor's Children ships still operate. Hah. The Legion seems to have raped most of it's crew to death and the rest seem permanently doped up. Who's flying those things? :-D
How do they recruit new crew? They make planet fall and say, "Hey guys? Do you want to work on our starships? You'll get a great salary and benefits. We have a great dental plan. You'll get to see the stars. *cough*and we'll rape your face and eat you*cough*


Sure, it's fiction, but some reality needs to be kept, otherwise we may as well have Horus firing magical unicorns out of his eyes. I know I am a little tied up in logistics and I know I should just chill out, but I just really think that it's detrimental to have an endless supply of enemies. It just doesn't make sense.

Of course, you can wave the magic wand and say "But it's the future and technology happened" but for me it takes away from any suspense or concern over the fate of the battles.
 
#32 ·
The Space Marine recruitment process is heavily-laden with Plot Armour.

Consider the fact that the M41 Blood Angels are able to maintain the same manpower as the Ultramarines on a nearly constant basis. The Ultramarines should obviously be able to maintain 1,000 battle-brothers (and change); they have nine (if I recall correctly) star systems to recruit from. The Blood Angels, on the other hand, recruit from a single irradiated wasteland of a planet, populated by tribes of appropriately irradiated hunter-gatherers who apparently haven't managed any macro-scale communities, industrial infrastructure, etc., since the Imperium found them.

With that in mind, consider the fact that, back in M31, the Blood Angels Legion (not Chapter) relied on that same planet as its recruiting ground. Sure, Forge World dealt out some serious common sense by making it official that the Legiones Astartes relied on several recruiting worlds, protectorates, etc., for increasing/maintaining their manpower. Still, the Blood Angels must have relied on Baal to provide manpower for more than a 1,000-Space Marine Chapter. There's no way it was just this symbolic headquarters-in-name-only that was only expected to contribute a minimum of recruits.

Hence why I've long advocated the idea that the "Only a few people are ever able to become Space Marines" bit really comes down to many Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes having lost a lot of the Space Marine creation how-to (something that is actually stated outright in the original Index Astartes articles) and/or them making it artificially difficult on themselves.

Meaning, how hard is it to imagine that a cult of superhuman warriors who believe they bear the genes of the demigod sons of the master of the galaxy would needlessly create a incredibly deadly initiation process? Think about it: it sure seems more special when a thousand guys (or whatever) have to die before ONE of them can become a Space Marine, right? Human beings in the Warhammer 40k universe are divorced from reality to begin with, if the fluff quotes from the rulebooks are a valid guide to their thought process and culture. Space Marines are on a whole different level from event that.

The Blood Angels are, in my humble opinion, proof positive of the fact that you don't need a stellar specimen to make a Space Marine. Again, they recruit from irradiated, emaciated wretches whose saving grace is a strong warrior culture and incredible survival skills. Despite the awful effects their planet has on their stature, the gene-seed transforms them into handsome demigod giant vampire warriors. They certainly don't seem to be any weaker than their cousins from other Chapters.

Nor do I think your recruit needs to have incredible mental fortitude or courage. At the end of the day, I'm willing to bet that it's the indoctrination, brainwashing, hypnotic and chemical conditioning, etc., that produces the "And They Shall Know No Fear" mindset. The Adeptus Astartes probably like their candidates to have the patience of a saint and the guts of Sir Galahad to begin with, but, again, I think that's just them fluffing themselves.

Look, at the end of the day, the only thing that probably matters is "genetic purity"... and by this I mean a sufficient absence of mutation and everything more or less in working condition. Feral Worlds probably work so well because the recruiting pool isn't needlessly narrowed down by the sort of hive world pollution that makes most die of five different flavors of premature organ failure. Even then, however, we know that people from some really messed environments are able to pass the sniff test.

To bring this back to the topic... the manpower of the Legions by the time the Siege of Terra kicks off is completely dependent on what the editors and the authors decide is best. The processes that have been described, alluded to, or simply implied make it eminently feasible for the Legions to maintain and even rebuild their manpower post-Isstvan III or Isstvan V*. If the authors want depleted Loyalists and/or Traitors come the 11th hour, though, they'll spell it out just like that.

Hell, don't forget: when "Savage Weapons", The Lion, Prince of Crows, and The Unremembered Empire were written, one of the Big Deals was that the Dark Angels were, like, the one Loyalist Legion still in full strength**. Fast forward to the intro blurb for Gav Thorpe's new Dark Angels Heresy novel, however, and it looks like the First Legion has taken serious losses.

Such is life!

* The Shattered Legions are probably the exception to this because the bottom line is gene-seed availability.

** The White Scars took a beating in Scars; the Space Wolves suffered terribly in Prospero; the Imperial Fists lost the better part of a third of their legion when their Retribution Fleet barely managed to escape back to Terra; the Blood Angels were mauled in Signus; the Iron Hands were one of the Shattered Legions; perhaps a third of the Ultramarines survived Calth; the Salamanders and the Raven Guard were both annihilated almost to extinction.
 
#33 ·
Fast forward to the intro blurb for Gav Thorpe's new Dark Angels Heresy novel, however, and it looks like the First Legion has taken serious losses.
Which blurb is this?

the Blood Angels were mauled in Signus
Despite the losses at Signus, Sanguinius says in one of the novels, or perhaps one of the audios, that he escaped Signus with the vast majority of his legion intact. Actually looking at it, the Blood Angels are quite possible the strongest legion at the current time in the Heresy. Their numbers equalling several other combined. No wonder their impact on the Siege of Terra is so large.(In before another novel which dicks them hard in some way).
 
#34 · (Edited)
I could very well be overstating the state of the Blood Angels Legion following the events of Fear to Tread. As for the blurb in question? I genuinely can't find it right now. I thought it was in Gav Thorpe's website, but I can't seem to locate it. I'll try again tomorrow!

EDIT: I'm almost positive the blurb in question was on Gav Thorpe's old website. The link to it redirects to his new one, which doesn't have the post in question.
 
#35 · (Edited)
Also remember that the Astartes creation process was a LOT faster during the great crusade, would take about a year to convert a human into a combat capable astartes. But the quick progress was deemed to be a strong risk of creating unstable warriors and cited as a leading factor for the corruption of the traitor legions. And so the astartes creation became a lenghty, drawn out process to check for purity and issues, whereas all they previously was worried about was to get them finished asap and sent to the frontlines.

So it fit nicely with a much smaller force of astartes to support, as the longer creation process simply cannot support the needs of a legion.
 
#37 ·
In many chapters the astartes creation process has become heavilly ritualized and embellished over the span of time since the horus heresy. Things slowly changing and getting warped, contributing to create chapter specific variants of the process. And combined with the technical stagnation and mythologizing of the knowledge, it is no wonder that it has become so fragmented. Many chapters losing organs as their processes became increasingly flawed and warped.

Then consider what happens when you get a founding from a chapter that is founded from chapter founded from their parent legion. A tale changes as its retold and repeated enough number of times, eventually becomming completely unecognizable from its original incarnation.
 
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