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post #41 of 73 (permalink) Old 05-10-15, 12:19 PM
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That still makes no sense.

To identify your strengths, you also need to identify your weaknesses. Take for example Power Armour. They know that the weak points are the visors and joints because there's no plating there.

That is the very basic of knowing the theory of taking down marines.

When they are in training, punching another astartes in the chest is going to do nothing, because of the fused and reinforced bone of the ribcage - you can't stab them in the heart or lungs. They have reduced reliance on things like the intestinal system - that leaves at a guess from pov either along the armpit or the neck.

Considering that this Primarch is Sun Tzu, Julius Caesar, Duke of Wellington, Napoleon, Alexander, Hannibal and Rommel all rolled into one, I find it singularly disconcerting that even considering the events on Monarchia he didn't envisage the potential for attacking legions.

The Space Wolves considered themselves "Executioners in the Emperor's role", and that the Ultramarines new that time would come for them to give up the way of the warrior, they have to be intelligent enough to realise that time would have come to kill other legionaries. Why there were no theoreticals for that is pretty criminal for the point of view of a commander.

You can state that "you can't compare with a far future military of transhuman supersoldiers", but from pretty much every high tech super advanced military film and scifi ever pretty much consists of such technology reneging on the humans, without that being a metatype thinking, for such highly capable characters (imagine Littlefinger in the Game of Thrones or Varys with their intelligence and cognitive speed in recognizing the change of political landscape) to not think "oh shit, what if putting Horus in charge of the majority of the Imperium's armed forces was a bad thing?" (which Guilliman, among others, thought in the first place), why was there nothing in place?

I can't exactly say that they'll have imagined a massive starship crashing into a planet and then having the systems star turned into a poisonous radioactive light is pretty out there, but repeatedly harping on the point that there was no "theoreticals" from a wider perspective is absolute bullshit, as is the reason for why Thiel was marked for Censure.

I don't have that many other complaints about it, but that massive amount of self evident logic gap is annoying for me.



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post #42 of 73 (permalink) Old 05-10-15, 03:41 PM
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I've worked alongside Canadian soldiers. Wasn't that impressed TBH. Good engineers, but the infantrymen weren't quite up to snuff.
I don't want to get into a whole thing here, but it just a historic fact that they are extremely well trained. That being said I'm not sure where or who you served with.

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post #43 of 73 (permalink) Old 05-10-15, 04:00 PM
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Not in so many words. That's putting a grand sounding name on it.

Considering that FPGRM was based in Arbroath, as in, the UK's nuclear submarine base, and the single greatest threat to any "theoretical" Russian invasion of the land, it was customary to have various plans and contingencies, with back ups for if they failed.

I can't tell you the number of times (seriously, I can't, it's a legal thing) when I've fished out Special Boat Service personnel performing a probe on our defence, or caught Special Air Service parachuting in, or any other various numbers of "random passersby" who "just so happen" to have ended up taking a picture in a spot that's not particularly helpful to security.

These happen from learning via experience of doing them wrong, but from people saying "what if".

One of the things that really fucking annoys me about Know No Fear is that with the exception of a single marine that no-one envisages having to attack other legions; considering the Space Wolves background, and the World Eaters, and the role that the previous 2 legions, as well as presumably the fate of the Thunder Warriors, not having any concept of attacking another (especially as they train against one another too) legion is fucking preposterous.

Dan Abnett isn't as bad as Graham McNeil for using that as a story device, but it's a pretty large plot hole/fridge logic moment that bears explaining as to exactly WHY something like that is the case.
Well, I think its the fact they turned from the Emperor. That itself was unthinkable to them. That being said it was naive of the ultramarines to think that.

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post #44 of 73 (permalink) Old 05-10-15, 05:05 PM
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Vaz makes a good point. We even have WBs speculating about how the UMs got so big is because they absorbed survivors of one of the missing legions, and then it's the UMs that are sent to censure the WBs on Monarchia. It really isn't plausible to think that Guilliman went into that confrontation without having some sort of contingency plan in case it all went tits up, however unlikely he thought that was.
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post #45 of 73 (permalink) Old 05-10-15, 05:09 PM
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Vaz makes a good point. We even have WBs speculating about how the UMs got so big is because they absorbed survivors of one of the missing legions, and then it's the UMs that are sent to censure the WBs on Monarchia. It really isn't plausible to think that Guilliman went into that confrontation without having some sort of contingency plan in case it all went tits up, however unlikely he thought that was.
Guilliman himself was never....fond of lorgar. He knew there was resentment. But I dont think he could have ever thought it would lead to this.

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post #46 of 73 (permalink) Old 05-10-15, 06:21 PM
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'And don't pretend you haven't run multiple theatrical simulations on all of us, Roboute,' the Lion sneered.
'I won't,' replied Guilliman. 'You are quite correct. The projections concerning the Khan were troubling.'
From The Unremembered Empire, which takes place two years after Know No Fear.

It does seem silly that Guilliman wouldn't have thought running theoreticals on fighting Astartes was a good idea, but as a narrative feature, going from having him censure anyone running theoreticals on killing Space Marines to running full simulations on all the other Primarchs and presumably their Legions in a span of less than two years really emphasises how important Calth is and how much it changed the people involved.

It still doesn't make sense that Guilliman hadn't done it before Calth, but I can kinda forgive it as a narrative device.

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Guilliman himself was never....fond of lorgar. He knew there was resentment. But I dont think he could have ever thought it would lead to this.
On the other hand, there is the one line in Betrayer along the lines of Lorgar realising that Guilliman had never hated him before. Lorgar thought Guilliman hated him which is why Guilliman agreed to the events of Monarchia, but in Betrayer he realises that's not the case and Guilliman never actually had a big issue with Lorgar and actually took part in Monarchia because of his duty and obedience to the Emperor. However, I might have remembered that wrongly, so if someone with the book can confirm it either way I'd be grateful.

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post #47 of 73 (permalink) Old 05-10-15, 06:27 PM
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From The Unremembered Empire, which takes place two years after Know No Fear.

It does seem silly that Guilliman wouldn't have thought running theoreticals on fighting Astartes was a good idea, but as a narrative feature, going from having him censure anyone running theoreticals on killing Space Marines to running full simulations on all the other Primarchs and presumably their Legions in a span of less than two years really emphasises how important Calth is and how much it changed the people involved.

It still doesn't make sense that Guilliman hadn't done it before Calth, but I can kinda forgive it as a narrative device.



On the other hand, there is the one line in Betrayer along the lines of Lorgar realising that Guilliman had never hated him before. Lorgar thought Guilliman hated him which is why Guilliman agreed to the events of Monarchia, but in Betrayer he realises that's not the case and Guilliman never actually had a big issue with Lorgar and actually took part in Monarchia because of his duty and obedience to the Emperor. However, I might have remembered that wrongly, so if someone with the book can confirm it either way I'd be grateful.
No your right. What i meant by he wasnt fond of him, was that he didnt agree with how lorgar acted. (the whole religious thing)

I think the reason Guilliman didnt run theoreticals on fighting astartes, is because the notion is absurd to him, and bordering on treason.

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post #48 of 73 (permalink) Old 05-10-15, 07:06 PM
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Oh, certainly, I don't think any of the Primarchs were particularly comfortable with Lorgar's zeal to a greater or lesser extent.

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post #49 of 73 (permalink) Old 05-10-15, 07:36 PM
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One of the things that really fucking annoys me about Know No Fear is that with the exception of a single marine that no-one envisages having to attack other legions; considering the Space Wolves background, and the World Eaters, and the role that the previous 2 legions, as well as presumably the fate of the Thunder Warriors, not having any concept of attacking another (especially as they train against one another too) legion is fucking preposterous.

Dan Abnett isn't as bad as Graham McNeil for using that as a story device, but it's a pretty large plot hole/fridge logic moment that bears explaining as to exactly WHY something like that is the case.
I hear you... but I think this comes down to the mental/psychological conditioning that the Legiones Astartes are subjected to.

We're not, after all, talking about something like, "Oh, we just never thought of fighting other Space Marines." The sentiment consistently expressed is one of sheer disbelief at the very notion of fighting one of their battle-brothers/cousins. The idea is thought of as impossible.

Nor do I think it's a coincidence that the Night Lords, Space Wolves, and World Eaters are the three Legions that fall outside this mindset. The Night Lords almost certainly didn't go through with the full range of conditioning protocols once they were reunited with the Night Haunter. The World Eaters were fundamentally broken once they took on the Butcher's Nails. And as for the Space Wolves, however much Black Library seems to be distancing themselves from the concept nowadays, it's obvious that the original intent (as of Prospero Burns and Deliverance Lost) was that they were designed to be a certain way and then given a role that matched it.
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post #50 of 73 (permalink) Old 05-10-15, 08:06 PM
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I think the reason Guilliman didnt run theoreticals on fighting astartes, is because the notion is absurd to him, and bordering on treason.
And yet he felt the need to bring his entire legion to face down Lorgar and his 50,000 sons. If he didn't think there might be a need to have them there, why not just turn up with his personal retinue, or whatever contingent would normally be on his flag ship? No, he felt that he had to out number the WBs, just in case.

The more I think about it the more it becomes clear that this is a major plot hole left by Abnett. Going on previous work it's blatantly obvious that he had planned for facing off against the WBs. It's a similar fuck up to McNeil's timeline mistake in TOD. Saying that the idea would be so absurd that a master strategist like Girlyman wouldn't ever contemplate formulating a plan for it is just plain stupid.
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