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post #1 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-13-15, 02:10 PM Thread Starter
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Default Should LOKEN be alive or dead

I'm a firm believer he should be alive and I'm glad he is. I see a lot of people say "him being alive lessons his sacrifice on istvaan" which I don't quite understand. It's like saying the soldiers who survived ww2 would be better off dead, and that them staying alive doesn't mean as much.

Also, his inner struggle is really interesting, to me at least. Seing an astartes actually struggle with mental issues is refreshing to say the least.

So what is everyone else's thoughts?
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post #2 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-13-15, 04:02 PM
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This has already been covered a lot elsewhere, in discussions that you took part in, but anyway...

His revival completely devalues the sacrifice of the loyalists amongst the traitor legions. His character and his alleged death symbolised them as a whole, and the portrayal of their loyalty being ultimately futile has been ruined by his return. I am completely convinced that this was a purely money decision, especially as his return has been singularly unspectacular.
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post #3 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-13-15, 04:11 PM
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His revival completely devalues the sacrifice of the loyalists amongst the traitor legions. His character and his alleged death symbolised them as a whole, and the portrayal of their loyalty being ultimately futile has been ruined by his return. I am completely convinced that this was a purely money decision, especially as his return has been singularly unspectacular.
I say that Tarvitz and the other doomed loyalists, like Solomon Demeter, Huron-Fal, Tarik Torgaddon, and that Apothecary that Eidolon murdered, they symbolised the sacrifice of the doomed loyalists. Loken is their revenge come back from death to haunt Horus.


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post #4 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-13-15, 04:21 PM
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Loken's initial death was somewhat mishandled. Abaddon wasn't set up well enough to be the one to kill him (not that he did, but you know what I mean). It should really have been Horus and Loken should have been clearly murdered and betrayed by his father. Abaddon just wasn't a good enough stand-in thematically.

The other satisfactory alternative would have been Loken just being randomly killed out of nowhere to illustrate the horrible tragedy etc. Being crushed to death by rubble a Titan's passing dislodged was too mundane.

As to him not dying and coming back, I wasn't averse to it at the time (as his death wasn't very good, and him not being killed by Horus - who is really his personal antagonist, not Abaddon or Little Horus or Erebus or Tormageddon - means we can now close that circle later) but further mishandling of his return and the mostly (not all) underwhelming use of him since is making me regret it. Esp as we've had his confrontation with Horus and it was mostly just dumb.

Ultimately, there better be a point to it.
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post #5 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-13-15, 04:33 PM Thread Starter
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This has already been covered a lot elsewhere, in discussions that you took part in, but anyway...

His revival completely devalues the sacrifice of the loyalists amongst the traitor legions. His character and his alleged death symbolised them as a whole, and the portrayal of their loyalty being ultimately futile has been ruined by his return. I am completely convinced that this was a purely money decision, especially as his return has been singularly unspectacular.
I disagree that you have to die to have sacrifice

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post #6 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-13-15, 06:35 PM
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I see a lot of people say "him being alive lessons his sacrifice on istvaan" which I don't quite understand. It's like saying the soldiers who survived ww2 would be better off dead, and that them staying alive doesn't mean as much.
No it isn't.

It doesn't devalue the death of the others. It just devalues the events in general. It is a poetic allegory.

One of the things I hated about Lord of the Rings was Gandalf coming back. His sacrifice for the party was real and emotional, but he came back as Mithrandir. Eh. Boromir, Thorin, Fili, Kili, Balin. Those are deaths which hurt to see and read. They're dead. Not coming back. They've been mourned.

Now imagine them coming back. And imagine their reason for coming back.

In this case, it is someone saying 'lets see how many sales we can get' pretty much. Nothing about loken coming back has anything to do with the story at large. We got the opening 'i was there the day horus slew the emperor'. Knowing as we do what happens, that gives you chills reading it

We get attached to him, then he dies before how we think it would have done. We mourn. We move on. We get new favourites; Raldoran, Sevatar, Ventanus, etc.

Then Loken comes back. It is your ex asking for a relationship now you've got a new partner. It's just not the same.



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post #7 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-13-15, 06:50 PM
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No it isn't.

It doesn't devalue the death of the others. It just devalues the events in general. It is a poetic allegory.

One of the things I hated about Lord of the Rings was Gandalf coming back. His sacrifice for the party was real and emotional, but he came back as Mithrandir. Eh. Boromir, Thorin, Fili, Kili, Balin. Those are deaths which hurt to see and read. They're dead. Not coming back. They've been mourned.

Now imagine them coming back. And imagine their reason for coming back.

In this case, it is someone saying 'lets see how many sales we can get' pretty much. Nothing about loken coming back has anything to do with the story at large. We got the opening 'i was there the day horus slew the emperor'. Knowing as we do what happens, that gives you chills reading it

We get attached to him, then he dies before how we think it would have done. We mourn. We move on. We get new favourites; Raldoran, Sevatar, Ventanus, etc.

Then Loken comes back. It is your ex asking for a relationship now you've got a new partner. It's just not the same.

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post #8 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-13-15, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Garviel loken. View Post
It's like saying the soldiers who survived ww2 would be better off dead, and that them staying alive doesn't mean as much.
Nonsense. It's nothing like it.

If Patton all of a sudden decided at the Battle of the Bulge to change sides and joined Hitler, taking most of his men and butchering the rest, then it would be like it. But he didn't, so it isn't.
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post #9 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-14-15, 12:54 AM Thread Starter
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Nonsense. It's nothing like it.

If Patton all of a sudden decided at the Battle of the Bulge to change sides and joined Hitler, taking most of his men and butchering the rest, then it would be like it. But he didn't, so it isn't.
So if he did, the loyal ones who stayed with America all deserved to die?!

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post #10 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-14-15, 01:26 AM
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So if he did, the loyal ones who stayed with America all deserved to die?!
What shit are you spouting? Where do you get that that is what I meant? Did I use words with too many syllables?

The loyalists were in a no-win situation, but fought on regardless. This noble but ultimately futile display of loyalty was symbolised in the figure of Loken, betrayed and killed by one of his closest brothers. Bringing him back belittles that, especially as it was only to turn him into a cash-cow.

Simple enough for you?
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