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post #61 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-17-15, 05:34 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Tawa View Post
And then Horus throws the Emperor off a balcony and into the reactor. He collapses and Loken kneels down to look into his fathers eyes.
"I've got to save you."
Horus smiles sadly.
"You already have, Luke......."

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Wait a minute......?
Loken, I am your father

Today, I march for Calth
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post #62 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-17-15, 08:07 PM
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Ahhhh one of the most misquoted movie lines of all time.
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post #63 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-17-15, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Garviel loken. View Post
But lolens survival means something. The mournival represents horus as a whole, each member a quarter of him. By killing of LOKEN and Tarik, horus thought to kill off the weaker parts of himself. Lokens survival in my opinion, gives horus self doubt now. And lolen may be the reason why Horus turns good just before his death
See, this is why the way he was 'killed' and the poor confrontation in Vengeful Spirit were both bad.

To use the metaphor; Horus killed his jovial and thoughtful dispositions with his anger and dourness. Fairly on the head. But removing Horus' agency one step wasn't the neatest device. If he'd just killed Loken himself it would have been far more satisfying narratively and thematically than using the (badly) set-up Mournival. The Mournival tearing its brotherhood apart works fine, but that could have been done alongside Horus himself stepping forward to kill Loken and Torgaddon. It was a squandered opportunity, presumably done because the intention was always to leave it open for Loken to return, and having a Primarch fail to off him would have been pushing acceptable narrative coherence.

So once he came back, this character who represents Horus' considered thoughtfulness, he really has to confront him. But that should have been saved for later on in the series, when it would have had some sort of thematic impact and introduced a change in Horus' behaviour - being confronted with a form of, if not conscience, then at least a straightforward 'hey this is what you've done and become, it's really far from what is a sensible person' should have some effect on Horus. It would also be another opportunity (although not as neat) to have Horus kill off that aspect.

You see, we are supposed to believe that Horus, by the time of the final battle, goes full proper evil no more mr nice gaius. Apart from the little chink of goodness that is reawakened at his very end. So Horus is going to get worse, not better, despite Loken slapping him in the grey matter metaphorically. So it's a busted trope, it didn't work and was a waste of time, constructively speaking. And also just narratively as all that plot strand did was throw away the Little Horus/Loken thing and kill Qruze. Okay, I guess it made Loken a bit saner and together, but we weren't in a rush, he could have stayed in his moon garden for a while yet. Cards got played too early.

Sure, maaaybe some awful contrivance like the something that reminds Horus of Loken will end up in the final battle, but that would be god-awful schlock writing.

Loken being dead would have been the best result.
But him being alive wasn't automatically bad and it could have been good.
But what they've done with him has been bad.

The thematic pacing is close to being completely shot to buggery in the series IMHO.
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post #64 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-17-15, 11:41 PM Thread Starter
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See, this is why the way he was 'killed' and the poor confrontation in Vengeful Spirit were both bad.

To use the metaphor; Horus killed his jovial and thoughtful dispositions with his anger and dourness. Fairly on the head. But removing Horus' agency one step wasn't the neatest device. If he'd just killed Loken himself it would have been far more satisfying narratively and thematically than using the (badly) set-up Mournival. The Mournival tearing its brotherhood apart works fine, but that could have been done alongside Horus himself stepping forward to kill Loken and Torgaddon. It was a squandered opportunity, presumably done because the intention was always to leave it open for Loken to return, and having a Primarch fail to off him would have been pushing acceptable narrative coherence.

So once he came back, this character who represents Horus' considered thoughtfulness, he really has to confront him. But that should have been saved for later on in the series, when it would have had some sort of thematic impact and introduced a change in Horus' behaviour - being confronted with a form of, if not conscience, then at least a straightforward 'hey this is what you've done and become, it's really far from what is a sensible person' should have some effect on Horus. It would also be another opportunity (although not as neat) to have Horus kill off that aspect.

You see, we are supposed to believe that Horus, by the time of the final battle, goes full proper evil no more mr nice gaius. Apart from the little chink of goodness that is reawakened at his very end. So Horus is going to get worse, not better, despite Loken slapping him in the grey matter metaphorically. So it's a busted trope, it didn't work and was a waste of time, constructively speaking. And also just narratively as all that plot strand did was throw away the Little Horus/Loken thing and kill Qruze. Okay, I guess it made Loken a bit saner and together, but we weren't in a rush, he could have stayed in his moon garden for a while yet. Cards got played too early.

Sure, maaaybe some awful contrivance like the something that reminds Horus of Loken will end up in the final battle, but that would be god-awful schlock writing.

Loken being dead would have been the best result.
But him being alive wasn't automatically bad and it could have been good.
But what they've done with him has been bad.

The thematic pacing is close to being completely shot to buggery in the series IMHO.
After thinking about it I think lolen will have a much bigger effect on aximand.But the main rEason I'm ok with lokens survival is because I strongly believe The authors will have an amazing reason for it.

Today, I march for Calth
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post #65 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-18-15, 03:14 AM
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I'd like to happily agree with you, but McNeil has put me off with his responses of 'I'm the author, I know more than you, I know what I'm doing, you'll be sorry you doubted me when you read the awesome thing I've got cooking' when his storytelling sense has been questioned, especially as the awesome things weren't so awesome.
Him trotting it out in the afterword to Vengeful Spirit again after seemingly taking over the direction of Loken isn't filling me with confidence.
However, we'll see where he goes with the Crimson King I guess, he's been setting that up nicely, although parachuting Lucius into the 1KSons plot strand is making me raise an eyebrow a little.
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post #66 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-18-15, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
The parody, and play on that deeper meaning is Abnett when he's at his best, and not flogging versions of Sharpe or Pearl Harbour in space. The events that happened within that original trilogy have the hallmarks of those stories.

In that, we see the figurehead; Loken. He's our talisman, our compass bearing, true north. He's a brutal killer, an antihero, but one who recognises his role as a xenophobic mass murderer as a necesity. Little touches like hiding the compassion of the Astartes from the remembrancers enhances things like this, as well as their almost autistic dealings with the non-astartes when not in a combat situation. They recognise they are living weapons, but Loken is among the most human we have come across. He is our eyes and our view of the events are tainted by his thoughts, and we have an attachment to him, because they roughly align with our own.

People like Loken; everyone knows the SoH were among hardest mother fuckers among a group of hard mother fuckers, everyone knows Horus would attempt to kill the emperor, and everyone knows that the emperor is a corpse; whether he's actually dead or not, we don't know, but he's seen as that.

So "I was there the day Horus slew the Emperor". We go into the book expecting to read about Horus Rising. Horus getting power. Horus becoming who would later destroy everything about the Imperium. And on the first line, we're shoved into end game situation.

By the time we get to the death of 63-19 we know exactly what's happening, and think to ourselves "ahah, you sneaky bastards, using our foreknowledge against us!".

Then comes Lokens death. Regardless of whether or not it was kept a mystery - and it wasn't (look at GRRM's books for mysterious deaths; people are seemingly just forgotten, like the Hound); he was dead. While we never saw the death blow, we got the fade to black moment when the hero proceeds to fuck the princess or gandalf falling.

We never explicitly saw his death, but the one thing that people hate in modern literature is deus ex machina; why people like Tyrion, or Daenarys are able to just keep plugging.

I didn't get to read GRRM before the HH, but I did get to read/see the Death of Ned before I learned Loken came back. That was an equally cataclysmical poetic event. In the grand scheme of things, a Captain of the Astartes being killed alongside the ~40,000 other loyalists I think it was who participated in the purging doesn't really make a massive difference to things.

But it's a personal thing. We've seen him "die". He was written out of the canon.

We spent years recognising he had died, and many, many books.

We've mourned his loss, lamented him. Made him a figurehead of what was good about the Heresy series, and we've learned to move on. People like Sevatar, Polux, Ahriman, and Bjorn begin to fill that gap, while cameos of our favourites like Forrix or Abaddon make appearances.

Then comes back Loken. And we're expected to feel the same way we've done again about him. A) We don't want to get attached because they might pull the same shit again b) we just don't care about him like we used to c) he doesn't actually do anything. His Big moment came and went, and he fucked it up (despite it not actually being in the script that Horus would be killed in Vengeful Spirit, from a non-metaknowledge point of view, he failed in his task). He's done nothing. The storyline hasn't advanced. He's not brought new interesting fluff to the setting, especially one that's dependent on him. He could have been equally be removed from the setting once more, and nothing would have changed.

Vengeful Spirit was simply nothing more than Graham McNeill attempting a double entendre with his title. Does he mean the ship? Does he mean Loken? Does he mean the ghost/daemon/dream affecting Loken? The non-corrupt brother who falls to Slaanesh in the end in a TOTALLY NOT EXPECTED PLOTTWIST THAT GRAHAM MCNEILL IS NOT AT ALL KNOWN FOR DOING AND HAS NEVER HAPPENED EVER BEFORE IN ANY BOOK (^TM). Or does he mean that actual, literal, non-figurative Vengeful Spirit?
I think you did a good comparison with the A Song of Ice and Fire-series.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garviel loken. View Post
But lolens survival means something. The mournival represents horus as a whole, each member a quarter of him. By killing of LOKEN and Tarik, horus thought to kill off the weaker parts of himself. Lokens survival in my opinion, gives horus self doubt now. And lolen may be the reason why Horus turns good just before his death
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Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
Meanwhile, I don't know what shit you're smoking when you're trying to find all this hyperbolic nonsense you're spewing. "Killing off the weaker part of him"... Jesus.
I would think it's a good interpretation of what transpired in that novel.

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Originally Posted by Mob View Post
I'd like to happily agree with you, but McNeil has put me off with his responses of 'I'm the author, I know more than you, I know what I'm doing, you'll be sorry you doubted me when you read the awesome thing I've got cooking' when his storytelling sense has been questioned, especially as the awesome things weren't so awesome.
The whole timeline issue which happened in TOD and he tried to explain in Wolf Hunt is one good example of this.

Last edited by forkmaster; 03-18-15 at 05:46 PM.
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post #67 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-18-15, 07:42 AM
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Abd then with Morty in Vengeful spirit too.



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post #68 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-18-15, 05:43 PM
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Abd then with Morty in Vengeful spirit too.
Have yet to read that novel, but I've heard the character made a drastic personality change between Scars and Vengeful Spirit.
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post #69 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-18-15, 07:23 PM
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Have yet to read that novel, but I've heard the character made a drastic personality change between Scars and Vengeful Spirit.
There's a drastic change, and then there's someone appearing to have been possessed by a completely different person. Mort is the latter of those two. Retarded doesn't even begin to describe.
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post #70 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-18-15, 10:57 PM
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Even though Vengeful spirit had most favourite characters in it, i consider it totally awfull book. Many changes to characters just suddenly, totally idiotic battle scenes, Loken sent with stupid mission among other things. Worst from Graham so far in HH series.
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