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post #21 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-14-15, 03:22 PM
Vaz
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Those aren't really mental issues, if I'm honest. Those are just questions. Please stop making yourself try to appear better than everyone by trying to seem like literary connoisseur by wanting something out of a poetic ideal and turning it into a gritty reality.

40K is pretty much a space opera, if a simplistic one that boils down to background fluff for a tabletop game. The Horus Heresy era however, is much closer to that original idea, where nonsensical technologies powered by handwavium and unobtainium have less relevance to the story. Very few stories are about a hunt for a magic mcguffin, or anything, it's about the events that have happened. This is like Romeo and Juliet; a tragedy, as it were. Greek and Epic, and Shakespearean, but without the complexities that they have. It's a Space Opera for beginners. Not only is that indicative of "wanting more than just "DEATH"! (I guess you've forgotten the rest of the novel series; with the exception of shite like Battle for the Abyss or Damnation of Pythos etc; much of it was about telling a story about why the events happened that we know about).

Fuck, it's pretty much Romeo and Juliet;

"A pair of star-cross'd lovers take their life;
Whose misadventur'd piteous overthrows
Doth with their death bury their parents' strife."

That's what people know; R+J, in love, then they die.

The parody, and play on that deeper meaning is Abnett when he's at his best, and not flogging versions of Sharpe or Pearl Harbour in space. The events that happened within that original trilogy have the hallmarks of those stories.

In that, we see the figurehead; Loken. He's our talisman, our compass bearing, true north. He's a brutal killer, an antihero, but one who recognises his role as a xenophobic mass murderer as a necesity. Little touches like hiding the compassion of the Astartes from the remembrancers enhances things like this, as well as their almost autistic dealings with the non-astartes when not in a combat situation. They recognise they are living weapons, but Loken is among the most human we have come across. He is our eyes and our view of the events are tainted by his thoughts, and we have an attachment to him, because they roughly align with our own.

People like Loken; everyone knows the SoH were among hardest mother fuckers among a group of hard mother fuckers, everyone knows Horus would attempt to kill the emperor, and everyone knows that the emperor is a corpse; whether he's actually dead or not, we don't know, but he's seen as that.

So "I was there the day Horus slew the Emperor". We go into the book expecting to read about Horus Rising. Horus getting power. Horus becoming who would later destroy everything about the Imperium. And on the first line, we're shoved into end game situation.

By the time we get to the death of 63-19 we know exactly what's happening, and think to ourselves "ahah, you sneaky bastards, using our foreknowledge against us!".

Then comes Lokens death. Regardless of whether or not it was kept a mystery - and it wasn't (look at GRRM's books for mysterious deaths; people are seemingly just forgotten, like the Hound); he was dead. While we never saw the death blow, we got the fade to black moment when the hero proceeds to fuck the princess or gandalf falling.

We never explicitly saw his death, but the one thing that people hate in modern literature is deus ex machina; why people like Tyrion, or Daenarys are able to just keep plugging.

I didn't get to read GRRM before the HH, but I did get to read/see the Death of Ned before I learned Loken came back. That was an equally cataclysmical poetic event. In the grand scheme of things, a Captain of the Astartes being killed alongside the ~40,000 other loyalists I think it was who participated in the purging doesn't really make a massive difference to things.

But it's a personal thing. We've seen him "die". He was written out of the canon.

We spent years recognising he had died, and many, many books.

We've mourned his loss, lamented him. Made him a figurehead of what was good about the Heresy series, and we've learned to move on. People like Sevatar, Polux, Ahriman, and Bjorn begin to fill that gap, while cameos of our favourites like Forrix or Abaddon make appearances.

Then comes back Loken. And we're expected to feel the same way we've done again about him. A) We don't want to get attached because they might pull the same shit again b) we just don't care about him like we used to c) he doesn't actually do anything. His Big moment came and went, and he fucked it up (despite it not actually being in the script that Horus would be killed in Vengeful Spirit, from a non-metaknowledge point of view, he failed in his task). He's done nothing. The storyline hasn't advanced. He's not brought new interesting fluff to the setting, especially one that's dependent on him. He could have been equally be removed from the setting once more, and nothing would have changed.

Vengeful Spirit was simply nothing more than Graham McNeill attempting a double entendre with his title. Does he mean the ship? Does he mean Loken? Does he mean the ghost/daemon/dream affecting Loken? The non-corrupt brother who falls to Slaanesh in the end in a TOTALLY NOT EXPECTED PLOTTWIST THAT GRAHAM MCNEILL IS NOT AT ALL KNOWN FOR DOING AND HAS NEVER HAPPENED EVER BEFORE IN ANY BOOK (^TM). Or does he mean that actual, literal, non-figurative Vengeful Spirit?

Meanwhile, compare that to Prince of Crows double entendre, or rather, it's hidden appropriation.
@Garviel loken. (The username, and the person behind it, not the character), these are Primarchs. In regards to Astartes, please give me similar occasions when such a thing has happened.

The only ones I can think of as being similar are Grimauldus and Mephiston. Mephiston being a pseudo-daemon, and Grimauldus being protected by some pretty solid foundations on a near fortress world; which may or may not have been helped by the Emperor's guiding hand. Not world ending weaponry launched from high orbit fired by Astartes under the direct command of the Warmaster, second only to the Emperor himself, while the Emperor doesn't even know what's going on due to the storm's affecting astro-transmissions.



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post #22 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-14-15, 03:33 PM
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post #23 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-14-15, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
The only ones I can think of as being similar are Grimauldus and Mephiston. Mephiston being a pseudo-daemon, and Grimauldus being protected by some pretty solid foundations on a near fortress world; which may or may not have been helped by the Emperor's guiding hand. Not world ending weaponry launched from high orbit fired by Astartes under the direct command of the Warmaster, second only to the Emperor himself, while the Emperor doesn't even know what's going on due to the storm's affecting astro-transmissions.
Pretty much, only they only had buildings fall on them.

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Bud its 40k there are tons of examples of astartes or even primachs living through certain death
There's living through certain death. And then there's living through a city being REMOVED off the face off the planet. Whilst being in it. That isn't living through what is 99% chance of death. That's just utterly absurd. That would be like being at the impact point of Hiroshima or Nagasaki, only those weren't even utterly destroyed, so it's not even as bad as them.

If Loken is alive, then Tarvitz, Vipus, Rylanor and all the others should damn will still be alive as well. At least they were conscious and still able to move around. How should they be any more dead than Loken?
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post #24 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-14-15, 06:21 PM Thread Starter
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Death was the easy way out. Loken would much rather be dead, then alive and having to fight his former battle brothers, and former father.

As for how loken survived, well, the emperor protects

PS i dont want this to get into a big fight, its all opinions and i respect all of yours

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post #25 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-14-15, 06:23 PM Thread Starter
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actually it says in legion of one how he survived.

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post #26 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-14-15, 06:41 PM
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Personally I loved Loken during the first books, most people did and I was sad when it appeared he died. However I think his death set the scene for the rest of the heresy very well, his return wasn't required imo.

I think the return of Loken could have easily of been switched with the return of Tarvitz and it would of made more sense to, he had a much better way of surviving than Loken did by simply heading to the shelter Rylanor disappeared into. Loken on the other hand was simply covered by rubble.

Not only that but we now also have another loyal Luna Wolf in the form of Severian, who is a lot more fitting of what the Knight Errants require.

In the end, I don't think Loken has added anything meaningful to the series since his return, his death on the other hand a lot more meaning, more than I think Loken's return could ever out-achieve.

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post #27 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-14-15, 06:46 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Words_of_Truth View Post
Personally I loved Loken during the first books, most people did and I was sad when it appeared he died. However I think his death set the scene for the rest of the heresy very well, he's return wasn't required imo.

I think the return of Loken could have easily of been switched with the return of Tarvitz and it would of made more sense to, he had a much better way of surviving than Loken did by simply heading to the shelter Rylanor disappeared into. Loken on the other hand was simply covered by rubble.

Not only that but we now also have another loyal Luna Wolf in the form of Severian, who is a lot more fitting of what the knight Errants require.

In the end, I don't think Loken has added anything meaningful to the series since his return, his death on the other hand a lot more meaning, more than I think Loken's return could ever out-achieve.
Tho i think loken will prove to be the most influential character during the seige. It will be him that makes aximand finally see what his legion has become. His tale is far from over

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post #28 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-14-15, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Garviel loken. View Post
Death was the easy way out. Loken would much rather be dead, then alive and having to fight his former battle brothers, and former father.

As for how loken survived, well, the emperor protects

PS i dont want this to get into a big fight, its all opinions and i respect all of yours
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Originally Posted by Garviel loken. View Post
actually it says in legion of one how he survived.
Legion of One, does not explain how Loken survived a city being obliterated with him inside of it, not in any real for of cover. You can say how much you prefer Loken back all you want, you can argue why you think he should have survived. But it's just lunacy and naievty to believe he was capable of surviving what happened to the city.

I'm seriously expecting Tarvitz, Vipus and Rylanor to turn up as well at some point. Their chances of survival were much bigger than Lokens.
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post #29 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-14-15, 08:12 PM Thread Starter
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Legion of One, does not explain how Loken survived a city being obliterated with him inside of it, not in any real for of cover. You can say how much you prefer Loken back all you want, you can argue why you think he should have survived. But it's just lunacy and naievty to believe he was capable of surviving what happened to the city.

I'm seriously expecting Tarvitz, Vipus and Rylanor to turn up as well at some point. Their chances of survival were much bigger than Lokens.
"It was here that he had re awakened, burried beneath the stone. Here that he had dug himself out, born on a single mindedness that bordered on lunacy."

Works for me

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post #30 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-14-15, 08:40 PM
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Dug himself out? Wasn't Loken pinned down and obscured, not buried?

And wasn't his rib cage/plate shattered?

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