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post #151 of 205 (permalink) Old 04-20-15, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Garviel loken. View Post
According to you we should have - Horus rising, Battle of istvaan, Seige of terra. Or is that still to long of a series for you?
Not really what he said at all. There were major events to cover in the Heresy.

Davin. The Council of Nikaea. The Burning of Prospero. Istvaan III. The Flight of the Eisenstein. Istvaan V. The ambush at Calth. Signus Prime. Tallarn. The war on Mars. The treachery unfolding on Caliban. The Battle of Phall. The war in the Webway/Beneath Terra. Malcador beginning to create the Grey Knights. The damnation of the Death Guard. The taking of the Sol System. The Siege of Terra. The aftermath.

That is a shit ton of material. Some of those could easily have been split into more than one novel to capture more of the event. Some were in fact, such as Prospero and both Istvaans.

We then got great new material, the story of the First Heretic and the start of it all in. Snatches of the Thramas Crusade, which could have been a full novel or at least more shorts. The depravation of the Emperors Children. A glimpse into the machinations of the XX Legion and how they entered the war, badly needing a real follow up to Legion. The campaign in Chondax briefly, followed by the decisions of the Khan and how the White Scars chose their side. More on the razing of the 500 worlds, showing what Guilliman was doing during the Heresy as well as Lorgar and Angron.

We still need the fall of the Death Guard, why Magnus chose to throw his lot in with the traitors, the War beneath Terra, the events on Caliban better fleshed out.

Instead we are getting countless mediocre novels of the Shattered Legions, Corax jumping around the galaxy in short stories and expensive novellas, stories of assassins that go nowhere and would have been better suited to shorts. Not to mention the haphazard way the Knights Errant story is going, split between shorts, bit parts on novels and audios combined.

It's not so much that we all want it to be at Terra now. We want focus on the important events, the defining events of the Heresy. So many of these shorts and novellas just don't go anywhere. It's great saying 'Yay more material for the Heresy background', but so many of them could just as easily be in 40k with the odd word swap here and there, and you'd never know.

To me, they've lost focus. I would be fine if they were churning out endless novels of defining or linked events, but they aren't. It's all over the place, becoming increasingly stagnant and stringently avoiding the last few real events that people still want explored.
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post #152 of 205 (permalink) Old 04-20-15, 03:48 PM Thread Starter
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You seem to enjoy creating argument, at the expense of fact.

My point is well made already, summarised above numerous times. You can agree or argue with yourself because I will - after this - no longer reply to your infantile posts.

To be clear: I'm not saying people shouldn't enjoy the series, I am questioning the merits and motivations of the current series as it stands. Many others are too.

You listed a possible series of three stages: that's something you've created and not something I recognise or agree with.

To reinforce the point about diminishing interest and support for the series, the last Ltd Ed book is still available more than a month after release: http://www.blacklibrary.com/Home/tal...d-edition.html

And - to finish - there have been numerous releases in the series in the past month alone. This is disappointing as the main story should be developed and completed before side stories are padded. That way, readers can feel secure in knowing they are not missing key information by not buying everything. The key example, and determining factor for me, was the story of Mortarion which didn't make sense in The Vengeful Spirit if readers had not already read an eBook (which set key information in place and wasn't published until after The Vengeful Spirit).

I remain out, with disappointment.

CtS

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post #153 of 205 (permalink) Old 04-20-15, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel of Blood View Post
Not really what he said at all. There were major events to cover in the Heresy.

Davin. The Council of Nikaea. The Burning of Prospero. Istvaan III. The Flight of the Eisenstein. Istvaan V. The ambush at Calth. Signus Prime. Tallarn. The war on Mars. The treachery unfolding on Caliban. The Battle of Phall. The war in the Webway/Beneath Terra. Malcador beginning to create the Grey Knights. The damnation of the Death Guard. The taking of the Sol System. The Siege of Terra. The aftermath.

That is a shit ton of material. Some of those could easily have been split into more than one novel to capture more of the event. Some were in fact, such as Prospero and both Istvaans.

We then got great new material, the story of the First Heretic and the start of it all in. Snatches of the Thramas Crusade, which could have been a full novel or at least more shorts. The depravation of the Emperors Children. A glimpse into the machinations of the XX Legion and how they entered the war, badly needing a real follow up to Legion. The campaign in Chondax briefly, followed by the decisions of the Khan and how the White Scars chose their side. More on the razing of the 500 worlds, showing what Guilliman was doing during the Heresy as well as Lorgar and Angron.

We still need the fall of the Death Guard, why Magnus chose to throw his lot in with the traitors, the War beneath Terra, the events on Caliban better fleshed out.

Instead we are getting countless mediocre novels of the Shattered Legions, Corax jumping around the galaxy in short stories and expensive novellas, stories of assassins that go nowhere and would have been better suited to shorts. Not to mention the haphazard way the Knights Errant story is going, split between shorts, bit parts on novels and audios combined.

It's not so much that we all want it to be at Terra now. We want focus on the important events, the defining events of the Heresy. So many of these shorts and novellas just don't go anywhere. It's great saying 'Yay more material for the Heresy background', but so many of them could just as easily be in 40k with the odd word swap here and there, and you'd never know.

To me, they've lost focus. I would be fine if they were churning out endless novels of defining or linked events, but they aren't. It's all over the place, becoming increasingly stagnant and stringently avoiding the last few real events that people still want explored.
Like i said im not a fan of the shorts and novellas either, but i dont think they are nessesary at all. As far as the novels are concerned, sure, the past year has been a bummer, with nothing really exciting coming out. Do i think some novels are not needed? Sure. But the authors and the BL team feel they are important, so i will give them the benefit of the doubt.

I personally dont read the shorts and i have only one novella. They just dont seem nessesary., and i have never been confused reading a novel yet.

Today, I march for Calth
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post #154 of 205 (permalink) Old 04-22-15, 10:33 PM
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To think that Corax and the survivors of Istvaan have had more screen time than the most important events in the Heresy...

I just realized the Battle of the Phall was a fucking short story.
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post #155 of 205 (permalink) Old 04-22-15, 10:39 PM
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LOL. I just came back to think about that. The Battle of the Phall is a fricken short story... This pretty much proves how disorganized and pretty much careless Black Library is about producing the types of stories it produces. No offense on the story itself and writer which were pretty good. We have the Alpha Legion playing where's waldo and Corax destroying the traitor legions single handedly... and I might add, are making loops spiraling out of control. But, they can't concentrate on hitting the stories that really designed the direction of the Heresy. FUBAR
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post #156 of 205 (permalink) Old 04-22-15, 11:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckcrawford View Post
LOL. I just came back to think about that. The Battle of the Phall is a fricken short story... This pretty much proves how disorganized and pretty much careless Black Library is about producing the types of stories it produces. No offense on the story itself and writer which were pretty good. We have the Alpha Legion playing where's waldo and Corax destroying the traitor legions single handedly... and I might add, are making loops spiraling out of control. But, they can't concentrate on hitting the stories that really designed the direction of the Heresy. FUBAR
Meh, no one needs the battle of the phall.....As long as we got a Calth novel!

Today, I march for Calth
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post #157 of 205 (permalink) Old 04-26-15, 09:06 AM
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And they even raised the price of the books.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/horus-he...-hardback.html
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post #158 of 205 (permalink) Old 04-26-15, 09:49 AM
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No need for that book to be 25 :/ there's longer books for 20!
25 for a "normal length" HB and 30 for a longer (vengeful spirit, thousand sons) HB from now on then?
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post #159 of 205 (permalink) Old 04-27-15, 02:15 AM
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Hey all,
I've been away from the forums for a while and that's largely been because I've also moved away from the HH series. A lot of the points that have been raised in this thread I (and others) have commented on before and it's no real surprise that it's hit so hard, it really has gotten out of hand.

The main reason I've turned away isn't the quality (or lack of) of what has been turned out so much as how much is being turned out. It's extremely hard to keep up, not to mention phenomenally expensive to keep up, with how much is being released and in so many different formats, especially when not everything is released in all formats.

What makes this even harder is how all of this is presented to us on the BL website, and the failure of how it's presented in GW stores (which I avoid like the plague anyway).

Trying to actually see what is available, and get your head around the context of each item and where it fits in to the larger overall HH story arc is almost a full time job. It isn't fun and I suspect only hardcore fans would willingly attempt it. Your casual fans, well, how many sales losses is that ?


The story arc is what is most important to me and I struggle to know where we are at with it. Forget the quality issue, I'm looking for a series that moves from A to B to C and is consistent. I don't care if the series runs from A to Z and then from AA to ZZ. I do not want a series that jumps from A to H to D to Z to F and so on.

Black Library have failed completely and utterly to manage the story arc. I do not believe they have a clear idea of where they are going, I do not believe they have proper control over their authors in regarding what they produce and how consistent it is with what has been written before.

Having a story arc that has a main story and several different sub stories to it needs to be managed. Other publishers have done it and done it well. My favourite example of this being TSR and the Dragonlance series which has a couple of hundred novels to it's credit. These were released as different series of books and whilst several books may come out in rapid succession on different sub stories, you always knew where you were because of they way they were released. For example,

The main story arc was a trilogy and was known as the chronicles. Sub story books would be released with their own headings, the Elven Nations Trilogy, the Heroes series, the Dragons Anthology and so on. Over all there are currently more than 40 different sub series and these series help manage the overall product. You never became lost as to what was going on and you knew very clearly from the sub series titles where they fitted in.

BL could easily have done this with the HH series, even with all the different formats they want to use. In some cases they have done this. The Nathaniel Garro series for example is easily identifiable from the rest of the series. They could easily have broken this up in to trilogies and sextets and released them with a proper structure in place.

I still have a real hunger for the HH story, but the way BL has managed releases makes me feel like i'm in a food fight not a restaurant.

That, coupled with the horrific, wait let me say that again, HORRIFIC, prices they are charging now for books, and for me, audiobooks (which is what I tend to buy), means it just to much of a negative experience for me to try and purchase their products. It's unsurprising that I tend not to be involved in the model side of the game either any more for exactly the same reasons, the purchasing experience is so negative. I hate, wait let me say that again, HATE, going in to a GW store because you get jumped on by staff, going hammer and tongs, trying to get you to by anything and everything they can. If I dare venture in to one, I almost always leave with a strong desire to beat someone to death.

Anyway, that's my rant done.
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post #160 of 205 (permalink) Old 05-25-15, 06:27 AM
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I think BL's strategy of alienation can be stripped down to two decisions on their end: raised prices, and lack of communication.

Raised prices - BL stuff is (in the most extreme cases) first released in a form from $75 novels, through $40 novellas, to $2 quick reads that are only 1000 words long. That means that, for one cent, you get between 5 and 15 words. By comparison, a typical fantasy doorstopper hardback is around 300K words for $30, that is, about 100 words for each cent. And sure, after a year BL prints paperbacks, but so does everyone else.

Lack of communication - Even something as simple as the utterly terrible website. Not announcing future releases. And, also, the disorganization of the endless ranges that leads to stuff being released in various forms, in complicated fashion, in bite-sized chunks, without clear information on stuff like what % of an anthology is reprint material.

These combine to shrink the fanbase, destroy hype, etc.. Maybe BL is still making tons of money, but I'm pretty sure it's making it off of significantly fewer people, and those people are significantly less satisfied with the product (as evidenced by most discussion on forums like this).

Exhibit One: the Warhammer Fantasy End Times. First, look at all the excited proposals for a 40K End Times series. That's what the fandom seems to want, more than anything. Now, I didn't closely follow the discussion on the WHFB End Times (not being a WHFB fan), but of what I read, none of it seemed positive. Maybe that's because it was a series that should have been as big as the HH, condensed down to five books, released within the span of a few months.

...That's my view of the current situation, at least. For my own part, it's been a while since I've finished a BL book. Maybe I'll get back into the world eventually; I do still have interest in the setting. But BL's business model is not exactly helping.

Renegades Saga contributions
(https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...tions-cry.html)
(https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...s-scarlet.html)
(https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...lesh-weak.html)
The Emperor has turned to Chaos. The dream of the Imperium has become a nightmare. But Horus and his Coalition stand against the dark, here at the end of time.

Lorgar's Betrayal
(https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...te-heresy.html)
What was broken has been mended. And what was burned away can never be reforged.
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