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post #51 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-05-15, 11:26 AM
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So explain how the wolves gave them a bloody nose?
Because a Chapter Master (Logan Grimnar), surprise attack, and ADB wanting to write something cool.

Try again.
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post #52 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-05-15, 04:42 PM
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...no definitive explanation is given for how they got aboard...

I thought as much. Allow me to provide some ways they got on board:

1) They snuck aboard by hiding in a craft leaving the dying world.

2) They were delivered via this spore mines they have.

3) They were already on board and the crew was under their control.

Now 3) is obviously not plausible, since I'm fairly certain that the Grey Knights would have noticed their crew acting strange. And if the Genestealers had the crew in service to them, they'd have waited until they got to a better target rather than butchering the crew and the Grey Knights.

Option 2) is slightly more plausible, but it makes no sense as to how the Genestealers got the drop on the Grey Knights, since the ship would have known it was hit by the spore mine and whatever delivered it (hive ship, etc) would have likely engaged the ship and the crew and the Grey Knights would have known that they were under attack, not ambushed while they were isolated and alone as the author maintains.

Finally we have option 1). Now if some unspecified vessel boards the Grey Knights ship, it either does it uninvited or invited. If it is uninvited then it's a threat and we have the same problems with option 2). If it was invited, we have to ask why. If it was a refugee ship from the dying planet, it never would have got within a million miles of the ship, because the Grey Knights work ceaselessly to preserve the secrecy of their existence. If is was an Astartes ship, they'd have been told to piss off. So the only real option is that it was a ship from the Inquisiton. But is it was an Inquisition ship why did the Grey Knights need to be there? And if they had been sent as back up, they'd have known the threat they faced and been on alert against Genestealers and other Tyranids, which the author maintains they weren't.

So the only option left to us is to assume that they made it back on a ship that left the Grey Knight's ship, presumably the Purifier's Storm Raven. That means that a bunch of trained Astartes managed to accidentally let on board a brood of 60 Genestealers. If that's the case then they deserved to die because they are fucking idiots.

Furthermore, if this brood of Genestealers is so powerful and their Shadow in the Warp so potent that it is able to overcome a being of legendary will power that even the Chaos Gods cannot overcome, how did the Grey Knights not sense it? Surely if this brood of Genestealers is so powerful at least one of these psychic individuals would have realised and warned his brothers.

I cannot conceive in my mind of any plausible way that this group of Grey Knights is 'ambushed' by a brood of Genestealers, that doesn't make them look like anything less than idiots. And I suspect that the author couldn't think of one either, which is why there isn't an explanation given. The author can't be fucked to come up with an explanation, the situation just arises because "fuck it, it'll be a larf". No explanation, no reason, nothing. Add that to the questionable idea that a Grey Knight can be psychically dominated and the brood of Genestealers which overcame the 10 Purifiers (and the chaos cults which took up subsequent residence) can't kill the similar sized force sent to investigate and you have everything you need to convince me that the author is just lazy and and makes up incoherent plot devices that are ill conceived and shoody in order to sell a 2-bit audio book that is inconsistent and the same crap that the Black Library seem to be churning out of late; a hastily written, poorly conceived and poorly managed piece of shit that is just intriguing to get people to by the day or two after its released and is immediately forgotten about just as nearly everyone realises its crap.

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post #53 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-05-15, 09:14 PM
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Maybe because Marnus calgar isn't a psyker? Perhaps the connection to the warp a psyker has allowed them to be taken over by the hive mind easier.
? let us take another UM, Tigurius, some claim him to be a psyker that is supposed to have had a connection with the hive mind itself (also Mephiston has been hinted to do so), and lived, he did not get taken by the hive mind, also in the recent deathwatch book a powerful psyker Lyandro Karras takes on tyranids (in a genestealer lair) without being taken over...
Mephiston killed a Carnifex with his bare hands (no genestealer intervened by taking over Mephiston)
I just finished deathstorm where genestealers are killed by the dozen

but just to be quantitative, in death of integrity terminators of the novamarines and the blood drinkers cleansed a genestealer-infested space hulk, !! a kill ratio of 53:1 was achieved !!

at LOTN, regarding your codex statement, I hope this does not hold, I regard codex fluff (in the case of the GK codex sadly so) as one of the more solid fluff sources.
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post #54 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-05-15, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by piemelke View Post
I regard codex fluff (in the case of the GK codex sadly so) as one of the more solid fluff sources.
Codex fluff is written from a 40k point of view, in this case with 10,000 years having passed since the events they describe. In the HH series we're actually seeing the founding of the Inquisition and GKs as it's happening. It's a similar situation to being told about D Day by a veteran that actually landed on the beaches of Normandy, and reading a history text written years after the fact. Neither of them are wrong, but the veteran's story is going to have a level of detail that a text book written years later by someone who didn't actually witness the events simply can't have.
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post #55 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-05-15, 11:12 PM
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? let us take another UM, Tigurius, some claim him to be a psyker that is supposed to have had a connection with the hive mind itself (also Mephiston has been hinted to do so), and lived, he did not get taken by the hive mind, also in the recent deathwatch book a powerful psyker Lyandro Karras takes on tyranids (in a genestealer lair) without being taken over...
Mephiston killed a Carnifex with his bare hands (no genestealer intervened by taking over Mephiston)
I just finished deathstorm where genestealers are killed by the dozen

but just to be quantitative, in death of integrity terminators of the novamarines and the blood drinkers cleansed a genestealer-infested space hulk, !! a kill ratio of 53:1 was achieved !!

at LOTN, regarding your codex statement, I hope this does not hold, I regard codex fluff (in the case of the GK codex sadly so) as one of the more solid fluff sources.
The hive mind tends to adapt to things, perhaps it's their connection with the librarians that allowed them to learn how to take over a psyker.

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Originally Posted by Malus Darkblade View Post
Because a Chapter Master (Logan Grimnar), surprise attack, and ADB wanting to write something cool.

Try again.
If the grey knights were as good as you say they are they wouldn't have been ambushed.

They're marines trained to fight daemons, nothing more nothing less.
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post #56 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-06-15, 12:18 AM
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Okay, read The Emperor's Gift fully and completely before you make ANY statements about the Wolves vs Grey Knights debacle.



Typed on phone without my copy of TEG to hand, so not 100% sure on this.

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post #57 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-06-15, 02:15 AM
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If the grey knights were as good as you say they are they wouldn't have been ambushed.

They're marines trained to fight daemons, nothing more nothing less.
The wolves came to surrender. No one would have guessed they'd fucking shank a few GK's here and there. Also a chapter master of an immensely powerful chapter did/orchestrated the deed.

Last edited by Malus Darkblade; 01-06-15 at 02:18 AM.
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post #58 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-06-15, 02:17 AM
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...If the grey knights were as good as you say they are they wouldn't have been ambushed...

And as we have already seen, there is no plausible way that these Grey Knights would have been ambushed. So either they are massive idiots who shouldn't have passed initiation or the author is crap and pulling things out of their arse.

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And for two fucking grand, I could buy enough rum and hookers to 'artistically' recreate the better part of Pirates of the Caribbean.
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post #59 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-06-15, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Reaper45 View Post
The hive mind tends to adapt to things, perhaps it's their connection with the librarians that allowed them to learn how to take over a psyker.


If the grey knights were as good as you say they are they wouldn't have been ambushed.

They're marines trained to fight daemons, nothing more nothing less.
the events described took place near the very end of the Millenium likely not the first encounter with a psyker, if what you say is true, from now on every librarian fighting genestealers is a time bomb, I have a hard time believing that, and just to be clear

a kill ratio of 53:1
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post #60 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-06-15, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Malus Darkblade View Post
The wolves came to surrender. No one would have guessed they'd fucking shank a few GK's here and there. Also a chapter master of an immensely powerful chapter did/orchestrated the deed.
No I guess you're right, there's no possible way that they wouldn't have assumed the guy who never opened fire on them while they were killing billions would ever decide to attack. /sarcasm.

Seriously though the gk have to be fairly stupid to not expect an attack.
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