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post #51 of 54 (permalink) Old 11-03-14, 01:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Phoebus View Post
That obviously varies by era, etc. We can see that the indoctrination and conditioning processes didn't really change recruits during the Great Crusade era. We also know that many of the legions that fell to Chaos used accelerated processes, so it could be plausibly argued that the flaws that pre-existed (gang mentalities, savagery, anti-social complexes, etc.) would still exist in Space Marines that completed their training.
Welcome back. So correct me if I'm wrong but you're agreeing with me in that the core essences of individual recruits remains post psycho-indoctrination, yes?

Originally Posted by Phoebus View Post
Following the Scouring, we can see that indoctrination and conditioning vary by Chapter. In The Emperor's Gift, for instance, we see that the Grey Knights more or less completely erase the pre-existing identity.
I would argue that the Grey Knights require a much more refined/powerful form of psycho-indoctrination given the secretive purpose of their creation and the fact that daemons in possession of their real names would prove disastrous. Thus it would stand to reason that their methods of PI would differ vastly than regular Astartes.

Originally Posted by Phoebus View Post
In Ravenwing, we have evidence that Dark Angels are probably divested of most of their memories. Conversely, in the Ultramarines novels, Uriel Ventris routinely summons up detailed memories of his past, and we have no reason to believe that his Chapter wants to condition them away: Ultramar's entire society and culture exist to produce exactly the kind of mindset they want in their recruits.
Let us not pretend that certain authors and the creative liberties they've taken that go against the majority of established lore are taken as canon by most readers.

Originally Posted by Phoebus View Post
It's certainly not as sophisticated. It can also be argued that the conditions on Nostramo were imposed from the top down, whereas the Chthonian mindset was a result of a brutal struggle to survive on a dying world bereft of resources.

That having been said, I think it's folly to argue that the Chthonian existence wasn't every bit as brutal and savage as that of Nostraman gangs. Betrayal makes that rather clear, I think.
The same can be said of Deliverance then. Dare I say the conditions of Cthonia and Deliverance were almost identical and yet one legion came out without the gang mentality.

Medusa even. If I am not mistaken, in Betrayal/Massacre, it's stated that Manus's planet consisted of gangs that pillaged neighboring tribes via massive tank-cities. Yet, the Iron Hands seemed to have eschewed anything resembling the barbarity of gangs.
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post #52 of 54 (permalink) Old 11-03-14, 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Malus Darkblade View Post
Would the Imperial Fists or Ultramarines have picked up recruits with bad histories and inducted them into their ranks because psycho-indoctrination would absolve them of their sins? Psycho-indoctrination erases memories and brainwashes initiates, it doesn't change their core personalities.
Loyalty =/= Honour/Morality
Part of that brainwashing likely instilled loyalty to the Imperium. Brainwashing may have been more effective on some recruits than on others. Perhaps the brainwashing worked exceptionally well on loyalist Night Lords?

Look...sure you could be a nasty, sadistic thug, but why can't you be a nasty, sadistic thug who chooses to operate within the Imperium, instead of following your mad father on a self-destructive rampage?

The Terran Night Lords were the best of what the prison sinks had to offer i.e. the strongest/most willing to survive. In their underworld societies that meant joining gangs and raping left and right to prove your worth to gang leaders and killing for similar and other reasons.
The Terrans sound more like survivalists, less like Nostramans who lived under relatively decent conditions but in a morally corrupt society (Talos lives in an apartment with his mother who feeds him spaghetti)

Murder within the prison sinks was not committed out of desperation or in 'the heat of passion.'
I'm talking about why they were thrown in

It was to prove your strength to others so as to not become prey yourself and to survive (which is not the same as desperation).
Sounds kinda like desperation to me

In vast caverns filled with the half crushed ruins of millennia there lived men and women who had transgressed against the laws of their masters. Condemned never to see the light again or breathe free air, they lived out their lives in fear and blind darkness. There was no law in these lightless lands, and survival existed only by a blade's edge. Only the strongest and the most ruthless survived in the subterranean warrens, and those who did grew in cruelty and cunning.
...and these Terrans are inherently different from Cthonians how exactly?

You base the levels of depravity between the two on what exactly? Curze took out his homeworld because he could. He obviously could not have touched Terra.
Do you have a problem with Cthonian loyalists?

Cthonian society, while brutal and gang-like, has never been described as being anything close to what Nostromian/Terran prison-sink life was like.
Umm...have you read Betrayal's info on Cthonia? Cthonia sounds worse than either

Predatory, possibly cannibalistic murder-gangs roaming the collapsed subterranean tunnel network, killing and raiding because many enjoy the violence

If I were to choose one of them, it would be Nostramo first and then a toss-up between Cthonia and the prison-sinks, slightly preferring the prison-sinks. On Nostramo, I might get to live in an apartment and eat canned pasta
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post #53 of 54 (permalink) Old 11-04-14, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by MontytheMighty View Post
(Talos lives in an apartment with his mother who feeds him spaghetti)
This will always be such a great mental image.
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post #54 of 54 (permalink) Old 01-05-15, 03:04 PM
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I always thought that Lord of the Night (the book by Simon Spurrier) made a pretty good distinction between the Terran and the Nostraman Night Lords; the Night Lords' arrival on Equixos horrifies Sahaal, as does Krieg Acerbus and his (accurate) perception of how the 'new' Night Lords fought.

Originally Posted by MontytheMighty View Post
(Talos lives in an apartment with his mother who feeds him spaghetti)
His mother, who frequently came home bloody after her pimp beat her, and looked 70 by the time she was 50? Nostramo was shitty; it was less shitty if you lived on the city fringes like Mercutian, but it was still a life of violence and crime. The only distinction was whether you were the don or the thug.

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Last edited by MidnightSun; 01-05-15 at 03:06 PM.
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