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post #21 of 115 (permalink) Old 10-09-13, 09:43 AM
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Best scene of the novel:

Guilliman's "mom" rallying the White Scars, Iron Hands, Raven Guard, Space Wolves, Imperial Fists, Salamanders, and members of various other legions into action to come to Guilliman and the Lion's aid.

And they all shout "We March for Macragge!" together.

Classic Abnett touch.
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post #22 of 115 (permalink) Old 10-09-13, 01:48 PM Thread Starter
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Just a pity it turned out to be a huge mistake ^^. Luck for her that the Wolves stuck around, well not so lucky for Mads Loreson or Shockeye Ffyn, it's not clear which one of those two it was that died, but they seemed the most seriously injured of the pack.
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post #23 of 115 (permalink) Old 10-09-13, 06:26 PM
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Absolutely loved the book and am really looking forward to the next one. Really liked the Curze on a rampage scenes and especially the fight between Polux and Curze.

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post #24 of 115 (permalink) Old 10-09-13, 06:30 PM
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I see Lord of the Night has replied to me. Joy.

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What Tarasha Euten said about that sums it up in my opinion. One bolter shot to the head kills you, Primarch or no. Even Guilliman couldn't survive a frag grenade bullet embedded in his skull and then exploding. He was caught off-guard and in ceremonial, i.e not real, armour and unhelmeted and with no weapon, and his attackers were elite Alpha Legionnaires likely well trained in assassination and infiltration and likely hand-picked by Alpharius and Omegon just for this mission. They wouldn't do anything less for a Primarch.
We have considerably better feats for his brothers though. Fulgrim and Ferrus Mannus were described as taking hits from weapons that would turn Titan armor to paste, with Primarch skin being stated to be tougher than Terminator armor.Fulgrim in his underwear took a power fist to the face, along with repeated sonic blasts and other weaponry. A wounded Corax was slaughtering dozens of Iron Warriors and regarding bolter rounds as mere annoyances. Only a lascannon even gave Corax a slight pause. At one point we even have four squads of Iron Warriors pouring bolter fire into Corax without any real effect.

Heck, if a mere bolter round in the head could kill a Primarch, then Angron and Corax would have been dead along ago.

That's all off the top of my head. Guilliman doesn't really match up, even unarmed and caught off guard. I'm not particularly bothered by it though, as Black Library is notoriously inconsistent with Primarch durability. Apparently a bunch of grenades are enough to kill a Primarch.

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He was killed by being shot in his unarmoured body by thousands of shuriken rounds, and every time he got up he didn't have any time to regenerate and was basically a walking corpse fuelled by rage, it wouldn't be hard to put him down. His head had been blown open at the end, so his wounds obviously slowed him down and made him an easier target.
He is described as being ''plated and raging mad'' in addition regenerating faster and faster, so no, I do not agree with your explanation. In addition, we see Primarchs taking terrible punishment in other novels and shrugging it off. Heck, killing a Primarch in other novels was depicted as some shocking and amazing feat. Here Vulkan dies enough times for all his brothers.

It is rather lamentable that Abnett fell into the Wolverine trap when portraying immortals, but as I've said, I'm fine with ignoring one of Abnett's liberties with the setting.

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So you read the scene, read that Vulkan is unarmoured, wounded to a degree that would kill practically any other being, his mind is broken and he is incapable of thinking of anything beyond charging forward, and by the end even a part of his head had been blown off, and he had been consistently dying from the time he got out of the Medicae up until the battle with Grammaticus and Prytanis so he would not have had time to fully regenerate from any of his fights. You read that, and you still need the narration to tell you that he might not be at his best. I kinda think that it's implied the guy with half his head gone and the other half not functioning properly might not be at 100%.

"Vulkan came back from the dead once again.

It was happening faster. It was happening faster and faster each time. New life followed each death at an increasingly fearsome rate. Vulkan’s rage was such that he would not let death keep him for even a second."


I don't really see anything else in the narration that would imply he hadn't fully regenerated, especially as he evidently had enough time to arm himself at Guilliman's armory during the book. He is apparently not fast enough to catch the Perpetual pair, despite a wounded Corax being able to cross a hundred meters in a few seconds to take out Iron Warriors.

Last edited by Gree; 10-09-13 at 06:42 PM.
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post #25 of 115 (permalink) Old 10-09-13, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Gree View Post
I see Lord of the Night has replied to me. Joy.
Ooo sarcasm. That was witty and unexpected.

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Originally Posted by Gree View Post
We have considerably better feats for his brothers though. Fulgrim and Ferrus Mannus were described as taking hits from weapons that would turn Titan armor to paste, with Primarch skin being stated to be tougher than Terminator armor. Fulgrim in his underwear took a power fist to the face, along with repeated sonic blasts and other weaponry. A wounded Corax was slaughtering dozens of Iron Warriors and regarding bolter rounds as mere annoyances. Only a lascannon even gave Corax a slight pause. At one point we even have four squads of Iron Warriors pouring bolter fire into Corax without any real effect.

That's all off the top of my head. Guilliman doesn't really match up, even unarmed and caught off guard. I'm not particularly bothered by it though, as Black Library is notoriously inconsistent with Primarch durability. Apparently a bunch of grenades are enough to kill a Primarch.
Ok in order;

Turn Titan armour to paste?? Yeah no that's way too much. Primarchs can turn Titan armour into paste with their fists and weapons, so in that case what the hell are they wasting their time with anti-titan weapons then. Just send in the Primarch and have him cut the legs to pieces. And if they can kill God-Machines like that then a Greater Daemon or an Avatar would be absolutely no match, they could just bitch-slap either of them and kill them like that. Obviously you prefer the invincible MDK Primarchs that even an Avatar would shudder at facing, but I prefer the Primarchs that are god-like in battle but can be killed if you fight them the right way.

Tougher than Terminator armour?? In that case why not just go into battle with only a loin-cloth, that way they won't be slowed down by that all that unnecessary armour. Too much.

Same for the Fulgrim part. Too much.

I remember that scene and Corax was fully armoured at the time. And this is of course the fastest Primarch on an open battlefield with a jump-pack. Not a cornered Primarch in ceremonial armour in a tight space that there is very little room to manuever in and without a means of escape or a weapon.

At what point were grenades enough?? The Alpha Legion Kill-Team was aiming to kill him with a hail of bolter shots, which I add would more than likely be rounds designed to pierce heavily armoured targets, and only used grenades to flush him out.

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He is described as being ''plated and raging mad'' in addition regenerating faster and faster, so no, I do not agree with your explanation. In addition, we see Primarchs taking terrible punishment in other novels and shrugging it off. Heck, killing a Primarch in other novels was depicted as some shocking and amazing feat. Here Vulkan dies enough times for all his brothers.

It is rather lamentable that Abnett fell into the Wolverine trap when portraying immortals, but as I've said, I'm fine with ignoring one of Abnett's liberties with the setting.
Plated in armour he looted from Guilliman's museum. Patch-work armour that would not be very good, and regenerating life is not the same as regenerating flesh. I don't care if you agree or not, i'm just stating an alternate interpretation.

No what C.S Goto did in his novels is "taking liberties with the settting." What Abnett does here is called an interpretation and every author is entitled to do that.


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"Vulkan came back from the dead once again.

It was happening faster. It was happening faster and faster each time. New life followed each death at an increasingly fearsome rate. Vulkan’s rage was such that he would not let death keep him for even a second."


I don't really see anything else in the narration that would imply he hadn't fully regenerated, especially as he evidently had enough time to arm himself at Guilliman's armory during the book. He is apparently not fast enough to catch the Perpetual pair, despite a wounded Corax being able to cross a hundred meters in a few seconds to take out Iron Warriors.
I don't really see anything in that narration that would imply that just because Vulkan is resurrecting faster means he is regenerating faster. Vulkan is dying and coming back faster, but his wounds are not fully healing and by the time his wounds do start to heal quicker, when Narek blows part of his head off, he is killed repeatedly in a short space of time following that because his mind cannot think of tactics, only charging forward to kill, and thus he is prevented from regenerating fully to fight Curze again.

Corax = Fastest Primarch. Vulkan = Slowest. The Salamanders gene-seed actually does state that the Salamanders have slower reflexes than other Astartes, and I think it's fair to say that Corax is obviously faster than him.


Ultimately I prefer Abnett's interpretation of the Primarchs from Know No Fear and The Unremembered Empire. And Swallow's Sanguinius in Fear to Tread as well. The Primarchs are strong, some of the strongest beings alive, but they are not invulnerable and have been toned down from the earlier novels when their descriptions would imply that there is nothing else in creation on their level. And it also never actually states how long it took Guilliman to kill those Alpha Legionnaires, only that in his mind it felt like hours, which means that it could have been anywhere from 20 seconds to 1 minute. 10 Astartes dead in around 20 seconds, that is still damn good and better than most could do.


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post #26 of 115 (permalink) Old 10-09-13, 07:11 PM
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Well they used to be slower due to the the gravitational forces of their home world, but that fluff hasn't been around since Codex Armageddon afaik.
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post #27 of 115 (permalink) Old 10-09-13, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Lord of the Night View Post
Ooo sarcasm. That was witty and unexpected.
To put this as diplomatically as possible, I generally find debating with you is an unpleasant and time-wasting experience.

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Originally Posted by Lord of the Night View Post
Turn Titan armour to paste?? Yeah no that's way too much. Primarchs can turn Titan armour into paste with their fists and weapons, so in that case what the hell are they wasting their time with anti-titan weapons then. Just send in the Primarch and have him cut the legs to pieces.
You have only twenty Primarchs in an entire galaxy. it is quite plausible from a military perspective for them to not hunt Titans. The Primarch asset of the Primarchs of course if their command ability.

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Originally Posted by Lord of the Night View Post
And if they can kill God-Machines like that then a Greater Daemon or an Avatar would be absolutely no match, they could just bitch-slap either of them and kill them like that. Obviously you prefer the invincible MDK Primarchs that even an Avatar would shudder at facing, but I prefer the Primarchs that are god-like in battle but can be killed if you fight them the right way.
I certainly don't prefer invincible Primarchs. I don't prefer ones that are not much tougher than normal Astartes. Guilliman being killed by ten bolter-armored Astartes is very low-end for a Primarch. Heck, we've seen Astartes like Lucius and Sevatar take in similar odds.

And I'm not particularly sure why that would mean that Primarchs can ''bitch slap Greater Daemons'' if they can damage Titan armor.

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Tougher than Terminator armour?? In that case why not just go into battle with only a loin-cloth, that way they won't be slowed down by that all that unnecessary armour. Too much.
Why would they not wear any additional protection they can find? I don't particularly claim they are invincible or invulnerable. After all heavy weaponry like lascannons have harmed them. It's the issue with bolter rounds that I'm taking issue with.

If you want to see the quote it's here:

"Burning light and sound filled the Iron Forge, the weapons roaring as the unimaginable forces harnessed in their creation were unleashed. Ferrus dropped his guard and hammered his fist into Fulgrim’s face, the force of the blow enough to crush the helmet of Tactical Dreadnought armour, but barely enough to bruise the flesh of a primarch. Fulgrim rode the blow and smashed his forehead into his brother’s face, spinning on his heel and slashing his red hot blade towards Ferrus’s throat."-Fulgrim pg. 591

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Originally Posted by Lord of the Night View Post
I remember that scene and Corax was fully armoured at the time. And this is of course the fastest Primarch on an open battlefield with a jump-pack. Not a cornered Primarch in ceremonial armour in a tight space that there is very little room to manuever in and without a means of escape or a weapon.
He is noted to be already wounded and later on to be repeatedly struck by bolter rounds. Only heavy weapons are noted to give him any pause at all. I don't recall any source stating him to be the ''fastest primarch''either.

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Plated in armour he looted from Guilliman's museum. Patch-work armour that would not be very good, and regenerating life is not the same as regenerating flesh. I don't care if you agree or not, i'm just stating an alternate interpretation.
You attempted to correct me when I first stated my issue. If you don't care about my agreement then why are you bothered to reply?

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No what C.S Goto did in his novels is "taking liberties with the settting." What Abnett does here is called an interpretation and every author is entitled to do that.
Oh, look, a double standard. It's evidently not fine for CS Goto to have his own interpretations with the setting, but it's evidently fine for Abnett to ''have an interpretation, which is different from all that nasty stuff Goto does because you say so. Do I even have to point out how ridiculous your statement is?

Really, if you are going to pull that card then arguing with you is a pointless exercise.

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I don't really see anything in that narration that would imply that just because Vulkan is resurrecting faster means he is regenerating faster. Vulkan is dying and coming back faster, but his wounds are not fully healing and by the time his wounds do start to heal quicker, when Narek blows part of his head off, he is killed repeatedly in a short space of time following that because his mind cannot think of tactics, only charging forward to kill, and thus he is prevented from regenerating fully to fight Curze again.
And as I've pointed out, there isn't anything stated like that in the novel.

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Originally Posted by Lord of the Night View Post
Corax = Fastest Primarch. Vulkan = Slowest. The Salamanders gene-seed actually does state that the Salamanders have slower reflexes than other Astartes, and I think it's fair to say that Corax is obviously faster than him.
Do you have citations for Corax being the faster?

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Originally Posted by Lord of the Night View Post
Ultimately I prefer Abnett's interpretation of the Primarchs from Know No Fear and The Unremembered Empire. And Swallow's Sanguinius in Fear to Tread as well. The Primarchs are strong, some of the strongest beings alive, but they are not invulnerable and have been toned down from the earlier novels when their descriptions would imply that there is nothing else in creation on their level. And it also never actually states how long it took Guilliman to kill those Alpha Legionnaires, only that in his mind it felt like hours, which means that it could have been anywhere from 20 seconds to 1 minute. 10 Astartes dead in around 20 seconds, that is still damn good and better than most could do.
You can prefer Abnett's interpretation of the Primarchs, it does not change the fact it is a very low-end interpretation and frankly not much better than some Astartes in many cases. Guilliman's performance particularly pales in comparison to that of Corax, who takes on greater odds while wounded and if not particularly troubled by any of it. Heck,, Guilliman's performance is some of the weakest I've ever seen in the Heresy series yet.

It is particularly interesting that you cite Swallow's Sanguinius, since he showcases one of the strongest examples of a Primarch, with Sanguinius beating a Bloodthirster who slew 500 Marines in one axe-blow, and punching hard enough to send shockwaves through the air

Now if you want to take Abnett's interpretation, than that's all fine and dandy. I've already said I'm not particularly bothered by it. But please don't attempt to justify it to me. If you don't have anything else then I don't even see a point to this conversation.

Last edited by Gree; 10-10-13 at 12:54 AM.
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post #28 of 115 (permalink) Old 10-10-13, 08:21 AM
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To put this as diplomatically as possible, I generally find debating with you is an unpleasant and time-wasting experience.
Saying this with no shred of diplomacy whatsoever as I think using diplomacy to insult someone is the equivalent of saying it with a tight smile and a too-polite tone, I feel the same way about you. I simply decided to make my viewpoint known.

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It is particularly interesting that you cite Swallow's Sanguinius, since he showcases one of the strongest examples of a Primarch, with Sanguinius beating a Bloodthirster who slew 500 Marines in one axe-blow, and punching hard enough to send shockwaves through the air.
I quote that Sanguinius because he showed the power level I expect of a Primarch but also was capable of being matched by a powerful foe. Ka'Bandha is an extremely powerful Daemon and it's right that he could have killed Sanguinius if he hadn't been so arrogant as to leave him alive to watch his Legion suffer.

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Now if you want to take Abnett's interpretation, than that's all fine and dandy. I've already said I'm not particularly bothered by it. But please don't attempt to justify it to me. If you don't have anything else then I don't even see a point to this conversation.
So be it. Conversation ended.


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post #29 of 115 (permalink) Old 10-10-13, 08:42 PM
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I'm going to try and avoid jumping on the band wagon and not tweeze out the niceties. I have learnt to accept the irregularities and inconsistencies throughout the various Heresy novels (such as the portrayals of particular Primarchs).

I enjoyed the novel... ish. It was good. But in all honesty (and I'm really trying to not be unnecessarily critical) I feel it suffered from focussing too much on carrying on the plot of (that terrible novel) Vulkan Lives. Too much of the novel seemed to revolve around Vulkan and Curze (and that annoying Word Bearer with the sniper rifle), and too little around the politics of the Lion, Guilliman and Sanguinius. I got the impression from Savage Weapons and The Lion that Jonson was going to inherently oppose Imperium Secundus, challenge Guilliman and not fanny around. And because Sanguinius was only introduced a few pages from the end, he just seemed to accept it near-automatically. I would have liked to have seen much more political manoeuvring, much more conflict and strife between the triumvirate of loyal Primarchs and, quite frankly, more Sanguinius and the Blood Angels.

I'm not overly keen on the direction the perpetual sub-plot has taken to this point. I was excited about its potential after Legion and Know No Fear, but I don't like the way Kyme diverted it (which Abnett has now sustained). Similarly, I don't like the way the Cabal have been handled since Legion either.

Not Abnett's best contribution to the series, but not bad.



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post #30 of 115 (permalink) Old 10-10-13, 11:39 PM
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I'm going to try and avoid jumping on the band wagon and not tweeze out the niceties. I have learnt to accept the irregularities and inconsistencies throughout the various Heresy novels (such as the portrayals of particular Primarchs).

I enjoyed the novel... ish. It was good. But in all honesty (and I'm really trying to not be unnecessarily critical) I feel it suffered from focussing too much on carrying on the plot of (that terrible novel) Vulkan Lives. Too much of the novel seemed to revolve around Vulkan and Curze (and that annoying Word Bearer with the sniper rifle), and too little around the politics of the Lion, Guilliman and Sanguinius. I got the impression from Savage Weapons and The Lion that Jonson was going to inherently oppose Imperium Secundus, challenge Guilliman and not fanny around. And because Sanguinius was only introduced a few pages from the end, he just seemed to accept it near-automatically. I would have liked to have seen much more political manoeuvring, much more conflict and strife between the triumvirate of loyal Primarchs and, quite frankly, more Sanguinius and the Blood Angels.

I'm not overly keen on the direction the perpetual sub-plot has taken to this point. I was excited about its potential after Legion and Know No Fear, but I don't like the way Kyme diverted it (which Abnett has now sustained). Similarly, I don't like the way the Cabal have been handled since Legion either.

Not Abnett's best contribution to the series, but not bad.
Completely agree. The immortality angle of Vulkan has been, in all honesty, ridiculous. Having a few immortal characters is a novelty if used the right way. Grammaticus being immortal was fine for me because it wasn't overdone/overused, he "dies" in one novel and doesn't come back until a good few novels later. However when you reach a point where there's (at least) four immortals who are capable of re-spawning multiple times per chapter it gets a little tiresome and is not something I would associate with the self-sacrifice theme in the Horus Heresy. For me the Heresy is all about the tragic mortality of seemingly immortal beings.

Whether it was his intention or not Abnett has rectified some of this; Grammaticus has only one life left and I suspect Vulkan will receive a similar treatment. It's just a shame that the perpetual arc has had to be dragged down and diluted by, of all people, Vulkan. In his afterword Abnett notes that the novel is about drawing together the plots and characters of previous stories which, I think, may be a polite way of saying some of the arcs we've seen have been redundant (that god-awful sniper and Vulkan) and are now resolved whereas others, while entertaining, have simply run their course and will move on (Imperium Secundus).

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