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post #11 of 32 (permalink) Old 05-26-13, 07:17 PM
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The art looks pretty, though if I had to guess that might be all it has going for it. I'm not too thrilled about this after the twin disappointments of Know No Fear and Mark of Calth.
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post #12 of 32 (permalink) Old 05-26-13, 07:41 PM
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I know you're a diehard UM fan so it makes me wonder why you found KnF disappointing.
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post #13 of 32 (permalink) Old 05-26-13, 08:35 PM
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I know you're a diehard UM fan so it makes me wonder why you found KnF disappointing.
I'm not a direhard Ultramarine fan. Why would you think that?

Anyway Know No Fear was quite disappointing. Retconning Calth from an Ultramarines victory to a Word Bearer one, poor characterization of the Ultramarines and Guilliman retconning Ollanius Pius into a Highlander among other issues.

Yes, it was quite bad. I'm honestly surprised Abnett wrote it. He's usually better than that. At least Betrayer was better, although Mark of Calth was also pretty crappy.

(EDIT: Of course the above is simply my personal opinion from what I took of it.)

Last edited by Gree; 05-26-13 at 08:39 PM.
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post #14 of 32 (permalink) Old 05-26-13, 08:42 PM
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Why? Because of your previous posts.

A highlander. lol good one.

So it was previously stated that the battle for Calth was a solid UM victory rather than a pyrrhic one for both sides?
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post #15 of 32 (permalink) Old 05-26-13, 08:50 PM
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Why? Because of your previous posts.
And how do my prievous posts make me ''diehard?''. You are aware one can like a chapter and not be ''diehard'' as you so put it.

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So it was previously stated that the battle for Calth was a solid UM victory rather than a pyrrhic one for both sides?
Horus Heresy: Collected Visions, gives a different account of the Battle of Calth. Guilliman is involved much earlier and he organizes the Ultramarines forces in a carefully coordinated and disciplined counterattack. It was a cool story and a testament to the Ultramarine discipline and skill.

(Also Lorgar was in command at Calth in earlier versions. Now that's retconned to Lorgar being elsewhere)

In Know No Fear Guilliman is out for most of the battle and has his ass kicked by Kor Phaeron at the end. The Ultramarines spend most of the novel disorganized and on the losing side, only winning due to the actions of a Mechanicus techpriest activating a blatant plot device. In all I personally found the account by Abnett to be inferior to earlier versions in the Index Astartes and Collected Visions.

Last edited by Gree; 05-26-13 at 08:53 PM.
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post #16 of 32 (permalink) Old 05-27-13, 03:03 AM
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Quote:
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Horus Heresy: Collected Visions, gives a different account of the Battle of Calth. Guilliman is involved much earlier and he organizes the Ultramarines forces in a carefully coordinated and disciplined counterattack. It was a cool story and a testament to the Ultramarine discipline and skill.

(Also Lorgar was in command at Calth in earlier versions. Now that's retconned to Lorgar being elsewhere)

In Know No Fear Guilliman is out for most of the battle and has his ass kicked by Kor Phaeron at the end. The Ultramarines spend most of the novel disorganized and on the losing side, only winning due to the actions of a Mechanicus techpriest activating a blatant plot device. In all I personally found the account by Abnett to be inferior to earlier versions in the Index Astartes and Collected Visions.
I was under the impression that Abnett's Know No Fear was just a glimpse at the opening of the Battle for Calth, because didn't the entire Battle for Calth technically last many years past his book? So I took it as not contradicting the Collected Visions, because due to the genius we see of Guilliman and the subsequent leadership of Ventanus, the Ultramarines systematically slaughter the Word Bearers after composing themselves. From memory, doesn't Know No Fear take place during a relatively short span compared to the entire war for Calth?

I took it as sticking to the established canon fairly well, it was just a snapshot of the beginning rather then encompassing the entirety.

Also, while I did enjoy Guilliman's personal attack on Kor Phaeron's ship very fun and awesome. The actual duel between the two didn't sit well with me.
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post #17 of 32 (permalink) Old 05-27-13, 03:34 AM
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I was under the impression that Abnett's Know No Fear was just a glimpse at the opening of the Battle for Calth, because didn't the entire Battle for Calth technically last many years past his book? So I took it as not contradicting the Collected Visions, because due to the genius we see of Guilliman and the subsequent leadership of Ventanus, the Ultramarines systematically slaughter the Word Bearers after composing themselves. From memory, doesn't Know No Fear take place during a relatively short span compared to the entire war for Calth?

I took it as sticking to the established canon fairly well, it was just a snapshot of the beginning rather then encompassing the entirety.
It's much more than a brief shapshot certainly. The underground war comes later after this book, but at the end of Know No Fear, Guilliman and the fleet leaves. The Battle of Calth, as in previous fluff, is effectively over for the main forces of the legions with only the survivors on Calth left to fight it out after everybody else left.

Guilliman only orders two actions against the Word Bearers, one to board the flagship and the other to attack the facility on the ground. Then Calth is cut off by warp storms and Guilliman leaves. That's all he does. The underground war process later but the Battle of Calth with Guilliman's involvement is finished and over at the end of the book.

The account in Collected Visions cannot be reconciled with the later events in Know No Fear. Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing is up to one's personal opinion but they clearly contradict each other with no easy way around it.

Last edited by Gree; 05-27-13 at 03:38 AM.
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post #18 of 32 (permalink) Old 05-27-13, 04:09 AM
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Lorgar was never in command at Calth. As far back as the Index Astartes articles it was Kor Phareon who led the attack whilst Lorgar was elsewhere.

Here's the original text and description of the Battle of Calth from the Word Bearers Index Astartes article.

"When the Word Bearers launched their attack against the Ultramarines, the strike against Calth was led byone of Lorgar's greatest champions, the former Master of the Faith, Kor Phaeron. This mighty champion swore to utterly destroy the planet, and was very nearly successful.

From his personal battle barge, now renamed Infidus Imperator, Kor Phaeron directed a full-scale invasion of the Calth System. Calth's three sister planets were all destroyed, massive geo-nuclear strikes ripping them apart at the core. Its once gentle sun was laced with deadly metals and substances that increased the star's radiation output tenfold. Within a century after the Heresy's end, the final elements of Calth's atmosphere were burned off, the world left airless, its populace now dwelling in gigantic underground caverns.

Upon its surface, the Word Bearers fought the Ultramarines to a standstill. The traitors held superiority in numbers, weaponry and brutality, but the Ultramarines would never give in. As driven as the warriors of Lord Kor Phaeron were, they could not dislodge the Ultramarines, many of whom had once called the planet home.

The war upon Calth was devastating and horrific. Ancient codes of warfare and martial conduct were broken and set aside by the Word Bearers as all manner of death and destruction was unleashed. The Ultramarines were stunned by the millions of cultists the Word Bearers used as human shields and disgusted by the hordes of daemons unleashed as shock troops. The Word Bearers, in turn, had underestimated the tenacity and resolve of their hated foe.

In the end,Lord Kor Phaeron was defeated when reinforcements from Macragge drove the Word Bearers from the surface of Calth. Kor Phaeron retreated all the way to the Maelstrom, a turbulent region of the galaxy where the Immaterium of Chaos seeps through into the material realm of the universe. The Ultramarines were victorious, and their leader,Brother Captain Ventanus, would one day set foot upon a broken Colchis, symbolically capturing the abandoned home world of the Legion that had once threatened to enslave Ultramar.

While Kor Phaeron set his men upon Calth, Lorgar was leading the rest of the Legion against Terra."

So you see Know No Fear is actually rather faithful to the original source material.

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post #19 of 32 (permalink) Old 05-27-13, 04:12 AM
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Lorgar was never in command at Calth. As far back as the Index Astartes articles it was Kor Phareon who led the attack whilst Lorgar was elsewhere.

Here's the original text and description of the Battle of Calth from the Word Bearers Index Astartes article.

"When the Word Bearers launched their attack against the Ultramarines, the strike against Calth was led byone of Lorgar's greatest champions, the former Master of the Faith, Kor Phaeron. This mighty champion swore to utterly destroy the planet, and was very nearly successful.

From his personal battle barge, now renamed Infidus Imperator, Kor Phaeron directed a full-scale invasion of the Calth System. Calth's three sister planets were all destroyed, massive geo-nuclear strikes ripping them apart at the core. Its once gentle sun was laced with deadly metals and substances that increased the star's radiation output tenfold. Within a century after the Heresy's end, the final elements of Calth's atmosphere were burned off, the world left airless, its populace now dwelling in gigantic underground caverns.

Upon its surface, the Word Bearers fought the Ultramarines to a standstill. The traitors held superiority in numbers, weaponry and brutality, but the Ultramarines would never give in. As driven as the warriors of Lord Kor Phaeron were, they could not dislodge the Ultramarines, many of whom had once called the planet home.

The war upon Calth was devastating and horrific. Ancient codes of warfare and martial conduct were broken and set aside by the Word Bearers as all manner of death and destruction was unleashed. The Ultramarines were stunned by the millions of cultists the Word Bearers used as human shields and disgusted by the hordes of daemons unleashed as shock troops. The Word Bearers, in turn, had underestimated the tenacity and resolve of their hated foe.

In the end,Lord Kor Phaeron was defeated when reinforcements from Macragge drove the Word Bearers from the surface of Calth. Kor Phaeron retreated all the way to the Maelstrom, a turbulent region of the galaxy where the Immaterium of Chaos seeps through into the material realm of the universe. The Ultramarines were victorious, and their leader,Brother Captain Ventanus, would one day set foot upon a broken Colchis, symbolically capturing the abandoned home world of the Legion that had once threatened to enslave Ultramar.

While Kor Phaeron set his men upon Calth, Lorgar was leading the rest of the Legion against Terra."

So you see Know No Fear is actually rather faithful to the original source material.
Lorgar was in command in Collected Visions. I am fully aware that he was not in command in the Index Astartes article, but that was not the account I was referring to. I'm sorry if I was not clear about that.
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post #20 of 32 (permalink) Old 05-27-13, 06:15 AM
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Having the battle last more than a few days was unrealistic in the first place; which is one of the resons why Abnett revised the timeline.

Sneak attacks don't get to last several weeks. In fact, if your enemy is still fighting you with most of his power intact past Day One, you clearly failed at a "sneak attack" and you're in all likelihood about to be annihilated.

Moreover, Abnett's portrayal of KNF is much more poignant than the old lore. Calth before was just another side battle in a long litany of HH side battles. KNF turns Calth into a true defining moment for the Ultramarines - it's their version of Pearl Harbor or 9/11, with the novel (which in-universe is described as an Combat Record) serving as their memorial for the fallen.
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