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post #11 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-20-13, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Malus Darkblade View Post
Wow so she's stronger than a Primarch apparently. Ben Countered.
I see new canon arriving soon! How that got past the editors/keepers of the lore, well no comment.

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post #12 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-21-13, 08:35 AM
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Hmm some concerns about this:

As Bobss said, the genesis of the Maesorus Temple doesn't bother me. It sounds like the kind of thing the oft-hypocritical Imperium would do. Making deals with heretics isn't new and the Assassinorum isn't squeaky clean, so it's not out of character for them to do something questionable like this. The only part of it I am leery of is the deal with the World Eaters, because I don't see the World Eaters as being the type to make deals with anybody, better if he had chosen the Night Lords or the Red Corsairs; a more mercenary group of CSM. The idea behind the Maesorus Assassins is an interesting one, a bit too much like Resident Evil for my liking, but it's a good one and it seems like this Leigenstrasse is an interesting opponent.

The fighting however is the problem. But not all of it. Lysander, a squad of Assault Marines, a squad of 1st Company veterans, a Scout Sniper Squad, the Emperor's Champion, the Culexes Grand Master and the Vindicare Grand Master, and she beat all of them. Too much. But it's the other Assassins that make it too much in my opinion. I wouldn't have a problem with it if it was just the Space Marines she beat, because i've always seen the Assassins as powerful opponents who could do such things. But the idea that this one warrior defeated three squads of the Imperial Fists, one of the strongest Astartes Captains alive, and two Assassin Grand Masters simultaenously is ludicrous. Even a Daemon Prince would have had a tricky time with that, not saying that a Prince wouldn't win, just that it would be hard. But this is a flesh and blood opponent that ultimately is mortal.

And a second fight with Lysander, a Terminator Squad, a 1st Company Epistolary, the Emperor's Champion, the Vindicare Grand Master and an Eversor Assassin and only Lysander survives. Again too much. Take away the Assassins, or in fact just the Vindicaer, and it's not so bad. The Eversor I can accept as it would be a hell of a fight, but the Grand Master is just too much. In my opinion this is a case of trying to show how powerful this Leigenstrasse is by having her defeat opponents that we will automatically recognize as being mighty, but taking it too far by having them be opponents that shouldn't be beaten that easily. If these Assassins had been regular members of their temples I could buy that they'd be beaten, but the Grand Masters?? No, I would think that they'd be able to win with the kind of Astartes backup they had.


Edit: Have just corresponded with somebody whose actually read the book and he had this to say.



Makes the whole situation of the book and the antagonist much better once you understand the context. The fights do sound ludicrous on the Lexicanum but according to David Earle on the bolthole the actual fights are quite fair, and because the Imperial forces seem to get in each other's way which we know is something that happens frequently when Imperial branches work together, especially a pair as different from each other as the Astartes and the Assassins.

Really want to read this book now, so I can get a real look at the events within for myself.


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post #13 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-22-13, 08:36 AM Thread Starter
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So the big question is, how do garbage plots/fluff-destroyers like this get approved by BL?

James Swallow and his Chaos-infused stop signs.

Gav Thorpe and his Space Marines dying from air embolisms as a result of near perfect biology.

Ben Counter + this and his Grey Knights getting massacred by Sisters of Battle.

CS Goto and his acrobatic Termanitor suits of armor.

Etc.

Why is it that Abnett and ADB never get their facts wrong? Why do we never, in a thousand years, have to worry about these two creating such abominations or mocking established fluff/lore?

Is it because they take their craft seriously and respect the IP while the others don't?

All of the BL authors can write well in my opinion but why some of them do the above time and time again and how it gets OK'ed by BL eludes me.

Last edited by Malus Darkblade; 05-22-13 at 08:41 AM.
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post #14 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-22-13, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Malus Darkblade View Post
So the big question is, how do garbage plots/fluff-destroyers like this get approved by BL?
In YOUR opinion they are garbage. But fact is some of the stuff you've listed is just personal taste, they are not to yours.

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James Swallow and his Chaos-infused stop signs.
There is nothing wrong with this lore-wise. It could happen and there's no reason that it couldn't have happened. You just don't like it and fine to that, not saying you should, but it's not a lore error.

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Gav Thorpe and his Space Marines dying from air embolisms as a result of near perfect biology.
I'm not sure what your talking about here.

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Originally Posted by Malus Darkblade View Post
Ben Counter + this and his Grey Knights getting massacred by Sisters of Battle.
Ben Counter works outside the box, you don't like that then that is your choice but 40k is all about differing visions and I think his stuff has been really good in the past with one or two exceptions. That said, the piece of lore you mentioned is an exception yes. It shouldn't have happened because as we know GK would massacre the Sisters, but it was written many Codexes ago so perhaps we can ascribe it to differing lore changes.

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CS Goto and his acrobatic Termanitor suits of armor.
No defence for that and it doesn't deserve any. Really bad lore and should never have been written or approved. Same with Planetary Guardsmen/Mutants becoming Space Marines.


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post #15 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-22-13, 08:58 AM
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I have to agree with Lotn, dont presume to speak for all of us. I personally thought it a decent read with an unusual plotline. I enjoyed seeing more of the assassins and showing they too can plot and scheme. That it isnt only the shadowy inquisition alone that can play questionable games with imperial resources.
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post #16 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-22-13, 09:10 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Lord of the Night View Post
In YOUR opinion they are garbage. But fact is some of the stuff you've listed is just personal taste, they are not to yours.

There is nothing wrong with this lore-wise. It could happen and there's no reason that it couldn't have happened. You just don't like it and fine to that, not saying you should, but it's not a lore error.
It's not a lore inconsistency, just a childish idea and ultimately bad writing. Why stop with traffic signs? Why not have poodles possessed by Daemons? It doesn't break the lore, you're right.

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I'm not sure what your talking about here.
From the Purging of Kaddilus:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord of the Night View Post
Ben Counter works outside the box, you don't like that then that is your choice but 40k is all about differing visions and I think his stuff has been really good in the past with one or two exceptions. That said, the piece of lore you mentioned is an exception yes. It shouldn't have happened because as we know GK would massacre the Sisters, but it was written many Codexes ago so perhaps we can ascribe it to differing lore changes.
Where was it written? What battle was mentioned in the codex that had the above happen?

So we can't just call it bad writing simply because 'Ben Counter works outside the box' and is a rebel?

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No defence for that and it doesn't deserve any. Really bad lore and should never have been written or approved. Same with Planetary Guardsmen/Mutants becoming Space Marines.
Why defend BC and the rest but not CS Goto? He did not break the lore because the fluff does not explicitly say someone in Terminator armor cannot jump.

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I have to agree with Lotn, dont presume to speak for all of us.
I don't speak for anyone other than myself. But it's nonsense to claim that the examples provided above are anything but silly.

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I personally thought it a decent read with an unusual plotline. I enjoyed seeing more of the assassins and showing they too can plot and scheme. That it isnt only the shadowy inquisition alone that can play questionable games with imperial resources.
No one has issues with assassins plotting and scheming. People have issue with this super-assassin being stronger than a Primarch.

Last edited by Malus Darkblade; 05-22-13 at 09:12 AM.
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post #17 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-22-13, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malus Darkblade View Post
It's not a lore inconsistency, just a childish idea and ultimately bad writing. Why stop with traffic signs? Why not have poodles possessed by Daemons? It doesn't break the lore, you're right.
Just because you think it's childish doesn't mean it is. I envision Daemons made of concrete, metal and with bits of everyday normal stuff twisted into their forms for that scene. Which to me is creepy because it's everyday stuff that the Daemons are twisting into bodies for themselves, even without flesh bodies they can get you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malus Darkblade View Post
From the Purging of Kaddilus:
I see no issue with that. Giving the hyper-awesome Space Marine biology a downside or two?? What exactly is wrong with that? And it doesn't say he'll die from it, it just says that it could cause cell death, which inevitably would lead to infections which would further tax his system.

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So we can't just call it bad writing simply because 'Ben Counter works outside the box' and is a rebel?
It's all down to personal taste. You don't like Ben Counter, fine. But others, including me, do. Personally I think Ben Counter has the best depictions of Chaos in all the BL writers because he really goes all the way out there in terms of madness for it. Chaos is meant to be inconceivably insane, and Counter gets the closest to that of any of the writer's ive read.

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Why defend BC and the rest but not CS Goto? He did not break the lore because the fluff does not explicitly say someone in Terminator armor cannot jump.
Now you're just being facetious. I don't need to read that Terminator armor can't back-flip because it's obvious to anybody who even looks at a picture of it that it wouldn't be able to back-flip. Some things don't need to be explicitly stated, and i'm not defending CS Goto because he does things that just would not happen, we don't need to read that they wouldn't because the idea of it is ludicrous.

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I don't speak for anyone other than myself. But it's nonsense to claim that the examples provided above are anything but silly.
To you. But to some of us it isn't nonsense and those things aren't silly, some of us like the things you've listed and other examples that you haven't.


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post #18 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-22-13, 10:24 AM
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I'm reading Fear to Tread at the minute at thoroughly enjoying it.

I recently read The Lion in which the Dark Angles are assaulted by the usual horde of daemons torn from the codex's army list, and it lacked the sense of horror that belonged to Know No Fear in which the Ultramarines systematically purge Guilliman's flagship from God-knows-what-daemon-thing appearing, or the planet itself slowly turning against the Blood Angels.

A gang of Bloodletters charging through a warp-rift might as well be Eldar in Halloween getup.

Claiming Abnett has consistently respected established lore is delusion. The man has even admitted in interviews to the contrary. Granted, I do prefer Abnett's lore to that presented in the source material, to the extent where I can casually say he makes the lore. But that isn't the point here.
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post #19 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-22-13, 10:48 AM
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I'm reading Fear to Tread at the minute at thoroughly enjoying it.

I recently read The Lion in which the Dark Angles are assaulted by the usual horde of daemons torn from the codex's army list, and it lacked the sense of horror that belonged to Know No Fear in which the Ultramarines systematically purge Guilliman's flagship from God-knows-what-daemon-thing appearing, or the planet itself slowly turning against the Blood Angels.

A gang of Bloodletters charging through a warp-rift might as well be Eldar in Halloween getup.
This! This is why I enjoyed the Junk-Daemons and the monstrous creatures that appeared in KNF. Because they are obviously Daemonic in origin. The Blood Angels arrive in Signus and see a Bloodletter in that empty city their rational views will not let them see it as a Daemon, they'll call it a xeno that they've never seen before. But when the Junk-Daemons appear it's impossible to deny a supernatural origin to them, they can't be called xenos because it's blatantly obvious that no xeno could do what they did, only something that isn't mortal could turn a city into a monster and create an army of nightmares out of everyday objects. It was a bucket of cold water to the Blood Angels collective face, showing them without any room to question that Signus was under attack by something they had been told did not exist, Daemons.

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Claiming Abnett has consistently respected established lore is delusion. The man has even admitted in interviews to the contrary. Granted, I do prefer Abnett's lore to that presented in the source material, to the extent where I can casually say he makes the lore. But that isn't the point here.
Let us not forget the Jetcar and the Lightsabre.


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post #20 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-22-13, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malus Darkblade View Post
So the big question is, how do garbage plots/fluff-destroyers like this get approved by BL?

Ben Counter + this and his Grey Knights getting massacred by Sisters of Battle.

Why is it that Abnett and ADB never get their facts wrong? Why do we never, in a thousand years, have to worry about these two creating such abominations or mocking established fluff/lore?

Is it because they take their craft seriously and respect the IP while the others don't?

All of the BL authors can write well in my opinion but why some of them do the above time and time again and how it gets OK'ed by BL eludes me.
Considering the posts above this one, I will merely limit myself to this:

I like how you mention the "Sisters of Battle massacre Grey Knights" stuff again. We are talking about what appears to be an entire convent of Sisters of Battle, facing off against a handful of Grey Knights.

I just checked in the book, it's a small army of entrenched Sisters of Battle fighting against 21 Grey Knights and possibly killing 3 Grey Knights in the process. That is hardly a skirmish, let alone a massacre.

Edit: To get back on-topic, I am planning on getting Seventh Retribution, sometime. Like so many other books that have been released this year. oh well.

Last edited by Cruxyh; 05-22-13 at 02:16 PM.
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