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post #11 of 51 (permalink) Old 03-28-13, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Khyzer View Post
God would that be a cool point of view for the novel. But as we know, its never just one point of view lol, I wonder who else could be used... as long as its not another fucking remembrancer... Nothing I dont care about more then the opinions of a lowly human stuck in a confrontation of the gods and demigods... I get the whole "readers being able to connect with humans easier then with the mentality of Space Marines" but fuck if I just don't give a shit. I read these books to get away from my human existence lol, not delve the mind of a man who weeps and pisses his pants everytime a space marine walks by.

I really hope its a custodes that we follow, would love to actually "be in" on the War of the Webway, and not just being relegated to sitting behind the Door once again listening to the sounds of whats happening, due to the human were following being to weak willed to fight chaos.
I think the remembrancer points of view are invaluable, in that the Horus Heresy books all concern themselves with conflicting moralities. Through a human lens, the reader is better able to understand how the traitor legions fell. Without remembrancers, the Heresy series would be reduced to bolter porn, more or less.

And as ADB himself states throughout the Night Lords series, Astartes minds operate on a different basis from humans'. Especially in terms of morality. Actually, my favorite parts of that series were told through the eyes of Septimus and Octavia. ADB was very effective in their portrayal. Without their perspective, you could sometimes be fooled into believing the Night Lords were almost honorable.

I hope ADB focuses goes with The Gates of Terra. As mal310 said, we need a better perspective on the Emperor. Too many of the BL's best authors have been fixated on the traitor legions, leaving the loyalists looking alternatively aloof, selfish, self-righteous or arrogant. (Perturabo's feelings on Dorn in Angel Exterminatus comes to mind)

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post #12 of 51 (permalink) Old 03-28-13, 11:00 AM
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I'm hoping for more of Amon in Master of Mankind, I really like him as a potential main character for the novel.
Whilst that is still possible, isn't a Blood Angel going to be the/one of the main characters?

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I think at this point the Emperor needs a bit more attention than Sevatar or the NL

Ultimately of course it's up to ADB/BL, but as someone mentioned, I feel a bit NL-saturated
I agree. The Night Lords, between their 40k series and their few appearances in the Heresy series, are not desperately requiring attention. Yes, we all love Sevatar, but I would be much more comfortable waiting to discover his fate than waiting for the much-needed expansion on the Secret War and the Emperor's character.

The Heresy series has been quite one-sided in terms of the perspectives we have been given of the traitors and loyalists. People, on these forums as well as others, commonly refer to several of the loyal Primarchs and the Emperor himself as foolish and ignorant because of some of the traitor perspectives we have seen (and indeed some of the below-bar loyalist portrayals). And whilst those opinions are generally ignorant themselves, it does show that the Emperor's character needs addressing more desperately than a cocky First Captain imprisoned aboard a Dark Angels ship.



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I do love how we don't even need CotE to comment anymore, chances are he has already said something intelligent before that can be re-applied to the current situation.
Heresy's Background FAQ. (Fluff Project)
CotE Reviews: Prospero Burns (HH Review), Age of Darkness (HH Review).

Last edited by Child-of-the-Emperor; 03-28-13 at 11:07 AM.
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post #13 of 51 (permalink) Old 03-28-13, 12:52 PM
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And whilst those opinions are generally ignorant themselves, it does show that the Emperor's character needs addressing more desperately than a cocky First Captain imprisoned aboard a Dark Angels ship.
I'm not so sure. One one hand I really wanted a book focused on the Emperor.

On the other hand, I'm worried anyone's attempts at talking about the Emperor might botch my perception of him or do him an injustice.

Even though it is ADB we're talking about, it's a fear that won't go away until I actually read the book.
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post #14 of 51 (permalink) Old 03-28-13, 01:02 PM
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I think the remembrancer points of view are invaluable, in that the Horus Heresy books all concern themselves with conflicting moralities. Through a human lens, the reader is better able to understand how the traitor legions fell. Without remembrancers, the Heresy series would be reduced to bolter porn, more or less.
Well that is why I mentioned
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I get the whole "readers being able to connect with humans easier then with the mentality of Space Marines"
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Originally Posted by maelstrom48 View Post
And as ADB himself states throughout the Night Lords series, Astartes minds operate on a different basis from humans'. Especially in terms of morality. Actually, my favorite parts of that series were told through the eyes of Septimus and Octavia. ADB was very effective in their portrayal. Without their perspective, you could sometimes be fooled into believing the Night Lords were almost honorable.
Am I the only one who actually prefers to attempt to connect with the Space Marines methedology? If I were living in the 40k universe I would most certainly prefer to look at the universe as they do, and I enjoy the glimpses into how they morally judge things much more so then the endless billions of sniveling humans. And Septimus and Octavia are different in that their owner, Talos, included them into the schemes, they had a knowledge of what was going on. Almost every time we switched to their point of view they knew the plan, where as when ever we get remembrancers they are completely in the dark. In Fulgrim, all I cared about was watching the Emperor's Children fall to chaos, but instead I had endless chapters about painters and artists slowly falling. I get that humanity has its role to play and is worthy of a view during all this. But personally I just don't care, I would much rather my money goes towards the interactions of Space Marines, Primarchs, Custodes, Mechanicum, etc.
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post #15 of 51 (permalink) Old 03-28-13, 02:36 PM
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Well yeah, we all read the Horus Heresy books because we want to know more about marines. But to truly know a character (or set of characters), you need to view them through a different lens--a human lens. I appreciated the use of remembrancers in Angel Exterminatus. You have Serena D'Angelus and her rapid descent into insanity versus her paramour (I forget his name), who remains entirely human. Through his eyes, the reader gains a fresh perspective on the depths of Fulgrim's corruption. That's valuable to me. It helps me understand just how the legion fell.

McNeill didn't pull it off quite as well as, say, Dan Abnett--but I firmly believe that ADB will find a way to make remembrancers relevant to the plot. And in keeping with what he did in the Night Lords series, they'll actually be good characters. I look forward to seeing what he does.

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post #16 of 51 (permalink) Old 03-28-13, 06:57 PM
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Really hoping for Master of Mankind. ADB already did a great job with the NL's trilogy (and the extra short stories in the omnibus)
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post #17 of 51 (permalink) Old 03-28-13, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Khyzer View Post
Am I the only one who actually prefers to attempt to connect with the Space Marines methedology? If I were living in the 40k universe I would most certainly prefer to look at the universe as they do, and I enjoy the glimpses into how they morally judge things much more so then the endless billions of sniveling humans. And Septimus and Octavia are different in that their owner, Talos, included them into the schemes, they had a knowledge of what was going on. Almost every time we switched to their point of view they knew the plan, where as when ever we get remembrancers they are completely in the dark. In Fulgrim, all I cared about was watching the Emperor's Children fall to chaos, but instead I had endless chapters about painters and artists slowly falling. I get that humanity has its role to play and is worthy of a view during all this. But personally I just don't care, I would much rather my money goes towards the interactions of Space Marines, Primarchs, Custodes, Mechanicum, etc.
I can see where you are coming from, but in most of the novels the mortals are part of an integral plot point and do serve a purpose. Legion is perhaps the most obvious example: the Alpha Legion's portrayal was so good because we saw a lot of the plot from an outside perspective. The remembrancers throughout Fulgrim serve as a strong indicator of the III Legion's corruption. Sindermann and Keeler in the opening trilogy fulfil an important role, whilst Cyrene from The First Heretic was one of the most captivating characters of the whole series. Admittedly though it does swing both ways, and in some cases extensive chapters featuring certain mortals just seemed to drag and be unnecessary like in parts of A Thousand Sons, Nemesis, and Prospero Burns.



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Originally Posted by cegorach View Post
I do love how we don't even need CotE to comment anymore, chances are he has already said something intelligent before that can be re-applied to the current situation.
Heresy's Background FAQ. (Fluff Project)
CotE Reviews: Prospero Burns (HH Review), Age of Darkness (HH Review).

Last edited by Child-of-the-Emperor; 03-28-13 at 08:07 PM.
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post #18 of 51 (permalink) Old 03-28-13, 08:25 PM
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I can see where you are coming from, but in most of the novels the mortals are part of an integral plot point and do serve a purpose. Legion is perhaps the most obvious example: the Alpha Legion's portrayal was so good because we saw a lot of the plot from an outside perspective. The remembrancers throughout Fulgrim serve as a strong indicator of the III Legion's corruption. Sindermann and Keeler in the opening trilogy fulfil an important role, whilst Cyrene from The First Heretic was one of the most captivating characters of the whole series. Admittedly though it does swing both ways, and in some cases extensive chapters featuring certain mortals just seemed to drag and be unnecessary like in parts of A Thousand Sons, Nemesis, and Prospero Burns.
Yes, you guys obviously make some seriously true points with the integral essence that the mortal humans play in these story's. And I without a doubt agree in regards to Legion and I personally believe it worked out really well in Prospero Burns as well. I was more just caught up in the idea of the human parts of A Thousand Sons and most specifically Nemesis.
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post #19 of 51 (permalink) Old 03-28-13, 11:21 PM Thread Starter
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Legion is perhaps the most obvious example: the Alpha Legion's portrayal was so good because we saw a lot of the plot from an outside perspective.
Whereas The Serpent Beneath was so good for the exact opposite reason.


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post #20 of 51 (permalink) Old 03-28-13, 11:41 PM
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Whereas The Serpent Beneath was so good for the exact opposite reason.


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I do love how we don't even need CotE to comment anymore, chances are he has already said something intelligent before that can be re-applied to the current situation.
Heresy's Background FAQ. (Fluff Project)
CotE Reviews: Prospero Burns (HH Review), Age of Darkness (HH Review).
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