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post #1 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-31-12, 11:01 PM Thread Starter
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Default Argel Tal vs. Loken

I do not mean that in a sense of fighting.

I think we can all agree that they are both noble char, but one fell and the other did not. Would Loken have acted any different had he been in Argel Tal's shoes, or vice versa? When was the point of no return?


I think with Argel Tal it was when he allowed a Custodian to die and the Chaos ritual to go on. With Loken I think it was easier. Loken never made a compromise. He knew right from wrong (which is why he led the spear tip of I3).

My post is about Argel Tal and Loken, but honestly the best char as far as conviction goes is Saul Tarvitz. He had no melodrama as far as "what is the right thing to do?". Fuck my Legion, fuck my Primarch - I am doing the right thing!
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post #2 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-01-13, 01:17 AM
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Right and Wrong aren't always so easy. Argel Tal learned that the Emperor had been lying to everyone for thousands of years; that there ARE powers that the Emperor says do not exist. Further, those powers are as responsible for the creation of the Primarchs as the Emperor is, and the Emperor was going to renege on his obligation to those powers for their help. Argel Tal chose to learn these truths of existence. It's difficult to say THAT is wrong. And it's NOT difficult to say a galaxy-spanning Imperium based on lies is wrong.
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post #3 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-01-13, 04:50 AM Thread Starter
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Right and Wrong aren't always so easy. Argel Tal learned that the Emperor had been lying to everyone for thousands of years; that there ARE powers that the Emperor says do not exist. Further, those powers are as responsible for the creation of the Primarchs as the Emperor is, and the Emperor was going to renege on his obligation to those powers for their help. Argel Tal chose to learn these truths of existence. It's difficult to say THAT is wrong. And it's NOT difficult to say a galaxy-spanning Imperium based on lies is wrong.
Some lies are worth believing in. Do you honestly believe that "all men are created equal?", because the implication of that means you also believe that we are all Einstiens and Micheal Jordans. For the vast Majority of people we will never be the smartest person or the best athlete, but the premise of "all men are created equal" is something to believe in and aspire to.

If you want to rip it all down to Chaos and lies, you make a valid point. The Emp did lie. But I would rather fight my ass off to preserve the lie than face the 'truth' of chaos. Chaos is Damnation no matter how you cut it.
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post #4 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-01-13, 05:30 AM
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What help from Chaos did the Emperor get? Did I miss something in the 1st Heretic or Aurilian?
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post #5 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-01-13, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Vitarus View Post
Right and Wrong aren't always so easy. Argel Tal learned that the Emperor had been lying to everyone for thousands of years; that there ARE powers that the Emperor says do not exist. Further, those powers are as responsible for the creation of the Primarchs as the Emperor is, and the Emperor was going to renege on his obligation to those powers for their help. Argel Tal chose to learn these truths of existence. It's difficult to say THAT is wrong. And it's NOT difficult to say a galaxy-spanning Imperium based on lies is wrong.
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What help from Chaos did the Emperor get? Did I miss something in the 1st Heretic or Aurilian?
Whilst it's becoming more apparent that Emperor likely did use the warp to create the Primarchs, don't go taking what the chaos gods said to Horus and Argel Tal about him using their power as gospel. Never forget the gods are deceitful, insidious and will use any means to corrupt someone. One thing that's always bothered me about Horus and Argel Tal is how readily they accepted their respective visions. Barely any questioning and no doubt, they never once thought or voiced a concern that they might be being lied to.

Personally I don't believe Loken would have fallen in his place. They have vastly different ideologies and beliefs. Lokens faith and loyalty to the Emperor along with his steadfast views on what is right or wrong took him to the point where he would allow Horus to die than allow him to be saved by tainted means. I don't believe Loken would have allowed Vendethas death for a moment, it's just utterly against his character.
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post #6 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-01-13, 02:18 PM
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Some lies are worth believing in. Do you honestly believe that "all men are created equal?", because the implication of that means you also believe that we are all Einstiens and Micheal Jordans. For the vast Majority of people we will never be the smartest person or the best athlete, but the premise of "all men are created equal" is something to believe in and aspire to.
We are all of equal value, not of equal ability. Just because Einstein can think circles around me where physics are concerned, and Jordan can fly, doesn't mean their lives are worth more than mine is. It doesn't mean I should be sacrificed for them.

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If you want to rip it all down to Chaos and lies, you make a valid point. The Emp did lie. But I would rather fight my ass off to preserve the lie than face the 'truth' of chaos. Chaos is Damnation no matter how you cut it.
Genocide on the scale that the Emperor committed (How many planets that had been settled by humans before Old Night and how many Xenos species?) is Damnation. If you blackmail a good man, forcing him to let his throat be cut so that his blood can give a bullet the power to kill a demon, then what are you fighting for? What are you preserving?



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What help from Chaos did the Emperor get? Did I miss something in the 1st Heretic or Aurilian?
Yeah, it's in The First Heretic.


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Whilst it's becoming more apparent that Emperor likely did use the warp to create the Primarchs, don't go taking what the chaos gods said to Horus and Argel Tal about him using their power as gospel. Never forget the gods are deceitful, insidious and will use any means to corrupt someone. One thing that's always bothered me about Horus and Argel Tal is how readily they accepted their respective visions. Barely any questioning and no doubt, they never once thought or voiced a concern that they might be being lied to.
I thought of that as I was reading it. The thing is, afaik, it's never been contradicted. Not by anyone, anywhere. No hint of a contradiction. The Word Bearers have been yelling that the Emperor lied to everyone, and nobody said, "No he didn't." Why not? There's been a lot of time and a lot of Primarchs and powerful psykers, but nobody thinks that lie Chaos told needs to be exposed.
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post #7 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-01-13, 02:21 PM
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I think a lot of it comes down to the heightened loyalty the WBs have to their Primarch. Ultimately Argel Tal went with Lorgar because his devotion to him outweighed his discomfort at the course he was taking. Had Vendatha not shot at Lorgar it might have been different, but Argel Tal's fate was sealed at that moment.

Whereas Loken was able to look at Horus and those around him objectively and realise that shit was fucked up.

Loken would win the fight too...

"I will kill him. I will literally kill him. With my bare hands."

- Roboute Guilliman, Primarch, XIII Legion
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post #8 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-01-13, 04:33 PM
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I thought of that as I was reading it. The thing is, afaik, it's never been contradicted. Not by anyone, anywhere. No hint of a contradiction. The Word Bearers have been yelling that the Emperor lied to everyone, and nobody said, "No he didn't." Why not? There's been a lot of time and a lot of Primarchs and powerful psykers, but nobody thinks that lie Chaos told needs to be exposed.
But they haven't. Not one person has accused the Emperor himself, or even mentioned it to others for that matter. The traitors all go off on one about the Emperor lying about the gods, which he did, but the loyalists all recognise he did it to try and protect them. Although some of them still don't believe the gods exist, hell Magnus himself barely believe it, as of [i[Betrayer[/i] he still refuses to acknowledge the existence of gods or daemons, they are still just powerful warp entities to him. So your not really correct on that one. But not once has his supposed deal with the gods been mentioned to anyone outside of the visions in which they took place.

And none of what you said still changes the fact that they never once questioned the authenticity of the visions.
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post #9 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-01-13, 04:57 PM
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One thing that's always bothered me about Horus and Argel Tal is how readily they accepted their respective visions. Barely any questioning and no doubt, they never once thought or voiced a concern that they might be being lied to.
Argel Tal did accept that Ingethel may have lied, but realised that it didn't matter:

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Also, who said Horus didn't question his own Chaos-induced vision?



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post #10 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-01-13, 05:42 PM
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I still feel more should focus should have been given to the authenticity of the visions, it all just seemed a little too easy. My main gripe is people stating the visions as fact, in particular that the Emperor made a pact with the gods. Sure it might have happened(though despite how ruthless we know the Emperor to be, I'm still inclined to believe it's false), but the visions are by no means prood.
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