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post #21 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-02-13, 11:18 AM
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Yet you seem to think chaos isn't as bad as the Imperium, something I can't quite believe your saying. Even if you go on your basis that the Imperium is evil, then it's a case of the lesser of two evils. And Chaos is not the lesser evil, not even close.
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post #22 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-02-13, 12:03 PM
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Yes, "It could be argued". But the opposite can also be argued. It's a question of values. Mine do not agree with what you describe. Putting aside morality is, indeed, the issue. Without morality, humanity becomes capable of committing the atrocities we see in this mythos. Without morality, humanity is no longer something worth saving. Nobody would be arguing with me if we were talking about a story where some alien race was wiping out every being they came across, and has now discovered Earth. We would call them evil, and we would cheer when their mothership was blown up. We would say justice had been done; that they had no right to survive in that manner, and the universe is a better place for their death. Surviving at the expense and death of others is not evil when aliens do it, but acceptable when we do it.
yes but those aliens would have destroyed your species so they are evil, the imperium isn't trying to kill itself if it wanted to do that then the emperor could just get out of the golden throne, they do not commit such atrocities because they can like chaos does they generally do it to stop chaos or xenos. so they may not be that moral but that is replaced by their belief in humanity and its survival so in the grand scheme of things they are doing a little bad for a lot of good


Matt Ward declared death pit on the Eldar god Khaine. To celebrate his victory he held the most awesome party ever and all the Eldar were invited. The intense pleasure from the orgy with him spawned Slannesh, created the Eye of Terror and destroyed the Eldar empire. Their last words were, "worth it."
So spread the word, and beware of Matt Ward for he can Death Pit at any time.
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post #23 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-02-13, 12:28 PM
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Likewise, I can't believe nobody thinks there's anything bad about the Imperium or the Emperor's policies. Okay, one now. Thank you kavyanshrike, for suggesting that it may not be moral. (But the Emperor destroyed those aliens' species, just as those aliens would have destroyed my species. It's exactly the same thing. Deciding someone has the right to live and someone doesn't is wrong. That doesn't change just because we're talking about aliens. It's all sentient beings. If a sentient being isn't trying to harm me, it's wrong for me to kill them.) The numbers of planets they eradicated during the Great Crusade is staggering. The numbers of individuals is beyond imagination. And it wasn't an accident. It's not like things escalated too far in so many thousands of cases, and they were trying to figure out how to prevent such horrific mishaps in the future. Any planet that didn't and wouldn't do and believe precisely what the Emperor wanted was wiped out. That policy was called Good. And it was going to continue until there were no beings left in the galaxy who didn't do and believe precisely what the Emperor wanted.

Nobody has a problem with that???

So here's the Word Bearers. They wiped out planets they badly wanted to let live, and they were humiliated by the Emperor, in the form of Roboute, for trying to find a better way. And yes, their way was better. Even if the end does justify the means, the attempt to wipe out all views but the Imperial Truth to make a strong, united humanity failed in 30K. And it continues to fail in 40K. The Truth has changed, but the methods have not. They simply don't work. Even if it was possible to wipe out all views but one, it would be impossible to stop other views from springing up again. The Emperor was a fool to not know these things.

Suddenly, they are shown things that they were told did not exist. Not knowing Chaos existed, they didn't know the depths of horror Chaos delighted in inflicting on even themselves. All they knew was that the picture of the nature of reality the Emperor had given them was a lie. They chose to pursue the truth. I cannot fault them for that. They knew there was some nasty stuff in Chaos. The first stuff they saw was sacrifices and pain. But genocide was their way of life. It's not like they saw things right away that made all they'd done pale in comparison. They threw away the evil they'd been doing for a new evil. But they knew the old evil was a lie, and the new evil was the truth. Or at least a greater slice of the truth.

Yes, things went too far, imo. Chaos DOES do worse things. At least genocide puts uncounted quadrillions of beings out of their misery. Chaos would keep them in their misery forever. Once the Word Bearers saw a clearer picture, they should have chosen another path. That's why the Soul Drinkers are the real heroes to me. (I've only read the Omnibus. I have no idea if they become villains in what will be the second Omnibus.) They saw that the Imperium was corrupt, but they sure didn't turn to Chaos.

Last edited by Vitarus; 01-02-13 at 12:30 PM.
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post #24 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-02-13, 12:37 PM
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So here's the Word Bearers. They wiped out planets they badly wanted to let live, and they were humiliated by the Emperor, in the form of Roboute, for trying to find a better way. And yes, their way was better. Even if the end does justify the means, the attempt to wipe out all views but the Imperial Truth to make a strong, united humanity failed in 30K. And it continues to fail in 40K. The Truth has changed, but the methods have not. They simply don't work. Even if it was possible to wipe out all views but one, it would be impossible to stop other views from springing up again. The Emperor was a fool to not know these things.
it was impossible to make an strong united humanity in 30K and 40K because of chaos, chaos caused the horus heresy probably one of the worst times in humanities history where they betrayed there brothers abd they still fail to make a strong united humanity in 40k because of chaos. chaos is within everyone that is the reason why humanity cant win


Matt Ward declared death pit on the Eldar god Khaine. To celebrate his victory he held the most awesome party ever and all the Eldar were invited. The intense pleasure from the orgy with him spawned Slannesh, created the Eye of Terror and destroyed the Eldar empire. Their last words were, "worth it."
So spread the word, and beware of Matt Ward for he can Death Pit at any time.
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post #25 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-02-13, 01:13 PM
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Likewise, I can't believe nobody thinks there's anything bad about the Imperium or the Emperor's policies. Okay, one now. Thank you kavyanshrike, for suggesting that it may not be moral. (But the Emperor destroyed those aliens' species, just as those aliens would have destroyed my species. It's exactly the same thing. Deciding someone has the right to live and someone doesn't is wrong. That doesn't change just because we're talking about aliens. It's all sentient beings. If a sentient being isn't trying to harm me, it's wrong for me to kill them.) .
Humans and various alien species enjoyed a truce and sometimes even traded between each other during the Dark Age of Technology.

When the Age of Strife happened and humanity was at its weakest, some of those 'peaceful' aliens decided to strike at humanity.

That's when humanity and the Emperor developed a deep-seated hatred for aliens.

Also, given how hostile the universe is in the WH40k mythos, there are pretty much 0 peaceful aliens.
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post #26 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-02-13, 01:36 PM
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it was impossible to make an strong united humanity in 30K and 40K because of chaos, chaos caused the horus heresy probably one of the worst times in humanities history where they betrayed there brothers abd they still fail to make a strong united humanity in 40k because of chaos. chaos is within everyone that is the reason why humanity cant win
That's true. And I think the Emperor should have known that. I know that even in our rl world, where we don't have the Dark Gods. I don't think we should try to accomplish an impossible goal with Hitler's methods of eradicating all who are not exactly the way you think they should be. Another method should have been looked for. Better yet, a goal that was not known to be impossible - or certainly should have been known to be impossible - should have been looked for.
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post #27 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-02-13, 08:14 PM
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Personally, I think you're too white knigt(without insulting you).

One of you earlier post: We are all of equal value, not of equal ability. Just because Einstein can think circles around me where physics are concerned, and Jordan can fly, doesn't mean their lives are worth more than mine is. It doesn't mean I should be sacrificed for them.

That is real good on paper but did you go to Las Vegas? There is so MUCH beggars and homeless everyfuckingwhere it's unbelievable. Humanity always have put a value to human life. Even today we let Millions upon Millions dies because we don't want to give them our money to help them.
So yes some people are worth less than others, It's not right but still true nonetheless.

I think CHina is a good exemple. Most people say they are in the right of the left–right political spectrum. When you take some steps back you realize that they manage a smaller contry with 4 times more people than USA with a how mcuh time better economy,crime rates,and else. They do what need to be done to make their country run. China run by USA type of Governement and the same kind of politicians would be bankrupt in no time. Do we have less poor people here.... i'm not sure at all.

The Emperor and Humanity face a GALAXY at wars. If he would not be so ruthless humanity would be lost. You still in your right to not like is methods, But without them there would maybe be no humanity left or in the grip of chaos killing each others. I prefer the Emperor way, a lesser of 2 evil.

PS sorry for my "/$%? english.
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post #28 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-02-13, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by thrice00 View Post
Personally, I think you're too white knigt(without insulting you).

One of you earlier post: We are all of equal value, not of equal ability. Just because Einstein can think circles around me where physics are concerned, and Jordan can fly, doesn't mean their lives are worth more than mine is. It doesn't mean I should be sacrificed for them.

That is real good on paper but did you go to Las Vegas? There is so MUCH beggars and homeless everyfuckingwhere it's unbelievable. Humanity always have put a value to human life. Even today we let Millions upon Millions dies because we don't want to give them our money to help them.
So yes some people are worth less than others, It's not right but still true nonetheless.

I think CHina is a good exemple. Most people say they are in the right of the left–right political spectrum. When you take some steps back you realize that they manage a smaller contry with 4 times more people than USA with a how mcuh time better economy,crime rates,and else. They do what need to be done to make their country run. China run by USA type of Governement and the same kind of politicians would be bankrupt in no time. Do we have less poor people here.... i'm not sure at all.

The Emperor and Humanity face a GALAXY at wars. If he would not be so ruthless humanity would be lost. You still in your right to not like is methods, But without them there would maybe be no humanity left or in the grip of chaos killing each others. I prefer the Emperor way, a lesser of 2 evil.

PS sorry for my "/$%? english.
No worries about your English! It is far, far better than my command of whatever your first language is!

I still think the Emperor, and the 40K Imperium, should have tried something different. There must be ways of fighting Chaos that do not involve genocide. Wouldn't genocide be one of Chaos' chief weapons, after all? (And Fear! Two! Our two chief weapons are genocide and fear!) Sacrifices and spilled blood have got to be something Chaos benefits from.

How about letting all know what the enemy is, and seeing what ideas others come up with. The Emperor obviously has the most experience with fighting it. But it's equally obvious that he did not come up with a workable solution. Maybe other minds could have come up with other weapons, defences, etc. The solution to rid humanity of all religious inclinations is so obviously doomed to failure that it is difficult to suspend my disbelief in the whole mythos. Nobody with thousands of years of studying humanity, with a for-all-practical-purposes limitless psychic mind, would have gone that route.
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post #29 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-03-13, 04:00 PM
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No worries about your English! It is far, far better than my command of whatever your first language is!

I still think the Emperor, and the 40K Imperium, should have tried something different. There must be ways of fighting Chaos that do not involve genocide. Wouldn't genocide be one of Chaos' chief weapons, after all? (And Fear! Two! Our two chief weapons are genocide and fear!) Sacrifices and spilled blood have got to be something Chaos benefits from.

How about letting all know what the enemy is, and seeing what ideas others come up with. The Emperor obviously has the most experience with fighting it. But it's equally obvious that he did not come up with a workable solution. Maybe other minds could have come up with other weapons, defences, etc. The solution to rid humanity of all religious inclinations is so obviously doomed to failure that it is difficult to suspend my disbelief in the whole mythos. Nobody with thousands of years of studying humanity, with a for-all-practical-purposes limitless psychic mind, would have gone that route.
humanity did try a different method before the emperor came to power and then the xenos back stabbed them so would you let them stay alive when they can potentially kill you? the reason why people don't know about chaos is because that is how you can be infected by it- by knowing.
about it also it may affect the morale of the population to know that the space marines are corruptible and that daemons exist and can very easily kill you and there isn't that much to about it as even if you survive you are tainted and then killed.


Matt Ward declared death pit on the Eldar god Khaine. To celebrate his victory he held the most awesome party ever and all the Eldar were invited. The intense pleasure from the orgy with him spawned Slannesh, created the Eye of Terror and destroyed the Eldar empire. Their last words were, "worth it."
So spread the word, and beware of Matt Ward for he can Death Pit at any time.
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post #30 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-03-13, 05:15 PM
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EVERY Xenos species did not attack humans. There were any number of species who were happy to live peacefully with humans. But, since those on Planet A killed humans, Planets B-Z were wiped out.

As were all planets who were settled by humans, but did not follow the Imperial Truth.

Seriously, how does anyone not think this is evil? The Emperor is supposed to be the good guy, and this is how he behaves? Call it the lesser of the evils if it's necessary, but recognize the horror of this "solution". It's not different from, say, the US wiping out all Muslims, because some flew planes into our buildings. If we're the good guys, it's acceptable to survive at any cost whatsoever? As long as we show great remorse for all the children we kill? No, it is not okay. Of course Chaos is evil. That's a given. That's they're function. But not everything that opposes Chaos is good. Many Xenos were good. The Imperium is not.
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