Questions about Siege of Castelax [Spoilers!] - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
Black Library Fiction Here is where you can discuss your favourite Black Library publications and graphic novels. If it's published by Black Library it goes here.

 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 10 (permalink) Old 12-20-12, 07:46 AM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 21
Reputation: 1
Default Questions about Siege of Castelax [Spoilers!]

So I'm halfway through the book. Until now it got me pretty confused about some things:

1. The raptors in this story are just normal Space Marines with jump packs. In every other CSM Story I've read, Raptors were mutated, grotesque things and I thought this to be the definition of a raptor! Is this up for interpretation?

2. The Iron warriors despise mutation? Again, in Storm of Iron and several other Iron Warrior short stories, they were seen with Chaos war engines, Khorne Beserkers and other stuff. And the goal of the warsmith in Storm of Iron is to become a Daemon-Prince! Has the fluff about them changed in past years?

The first half of the book has left me disappointed: I expected some epic batttles of hundreds or thousands of CSM against orcs. What I got are 64 Space Marines who don't seem chaotic at all, the only thing they do which seems evil is plotting against each other. Ok they tread their human population like shit but I've just read the fantastic Iron Hands novel Wrath of Iron, in which the "good" SM aren't the nicest guys either....

The characters are plain boring and everything until now was totally predictable. Does it get better?
DjdaForce is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old 12-20-12, 08:17 AM
Member
Lupe's Flag is: Romania
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 80
Reputation: 2
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DjdaForce View Post
1. The raptors in this story are just normal Space Marines with jump packs. In every other CSM Story I've read, Raptors were mutated, grotesque things and I thought this to be the definition of a raptor! Is this up for interpretation?
There's the thing. GW sort of revamped the Raptors in the 6th Edition Chaos Space Marines Codex. Siege of Castellax just happens to be the first book to reflect their new background. That's not to say the old depictions are invalidated - just think of those as the new Warp Talons, which are somewhat more degenerated versions of the Raptors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DjdaForce View Post
2. The Iron warriors despise mutation? Again, in Storm of Iron and several other Iron Warrior short stories, they were seen with Chaos war engines, Khorne Beserkers and other stuff. And the goal of the warsmith in Storm of Iron is to become a Daemon-Prince! Has the fluff about them changed in past years?
Iron Warriors despise mutation, not Chaos itself. Khorne Berzerkers are not mutants, they're just regular marines with simpler priorities. Chaos War engines are actual constructs to showcase the Iron Warriors' mastery over both technology and the Warp. Daemonic ascension is a reward for repeated successes that further the cause of the pantheon.

Mutations, on the other hand, are not a reward or the result of skill or choice. Usually, they're just random quirks of the flesh exposed to Warp energies. Occasioanlly, they could also come as a punishment from one of the Chaos Gods. Either way, the Iron Warriors see them as a sign of weakness. And if there's one thing Iron Warriors can't stand, it's weakness...
Lupe is offline  
post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old 12-20-12, 08:52 AM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 21
Reputation: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupe View Post
Iron Warriors despise mutation, not Chaos itself. Khorne Berzerkers are not mutants, they're just regular marines with simpler priorities. Chaos War engines are actual constructs to showcase the Iron Warriors' mastery over both technology and the Warp. Daemonic ascension is a reward for repeated successes that further the cause of the pantheon.

Mutations, on the other hand, are not a reward or the result of skill or choice. Usually, they're just random quirks of the flesh exposed to Warp energies. Occasioanlly, they could also come as a punishment from one of the Chaos Gods. Either way, the Iron Warriors see them as a sign of weakness. And if there's one thing Iron Warriors can't stand, it's weakness...
Yeah ok, that makes sense. It is just totally confusing to me that this was never mentioned before, in no other Iron Warriors Story I have ever read. Since Graham McNeills Iron Warriors we all know that they despise half Bloods, but hate for mutations is new to me.

For example in the Anthlogy Treacheries of the Space Marines, the first Story is about an Iron Warriors Warsmith who has 2 Obliterator-Bodyguards. In another Story in the same book the Iron Warriors go to war with a battalion of the same. Until now, I expected the Iron Warriors to appreciate anything which is useful to destroy their enemies, but apparrantely I was mistaken...
DjdaForce is offline  
 
post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old 12-20-12, 11:52 AM
Member
 
Garrak's Avatar
Garrak's Flag is: Romania
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Timisoara
Posts: 91
Reputation: 5
Default

Haven't read the book yet but I'm pretty sure that they're ok with the obliterators. It's stuff like two heads, a cluster of eyes in your mouth, tantacles instead of hands and other such stuff that they despise. Those are mutations that give you nothing except a butt ugly look. Obliteratos are walking weapons platforms.

Follow me and I shall give you victory or glorious martyrdom! For the Emperor!
Garrak is offline  
post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old 12-20-12, 12:01 PM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 21
Reputation: 1
Default

In the book, the IW aren't okay at all with obliterators....Spoiler ahead!



They have banished their only Obliterator to a prison and another Space Marine who is infected with the Virus is disregarded as weak. Which is ironic because in the end the infection will only make him stronger!
DjdaForce is offline  
post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old 12-20-12, 12:02 PM
Member
Lupe's Flag is: Romania
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 80
Reputation: 2
Default

Obliterators are also most likely a controlled evolution rather than random mutation. They seem to have the obliterator virus strain under control...
Lupe is offline  
post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old 12-20-12, 12:08 PM
Chaos God of Old Night
 
Lord of the Night's Avatar
Lord of the Night's Flag is: United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: The Eternal Night
Posts: 5,028
Reputation: 48
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DjdaForce View Post
1. The raptors in this story are just normal Space Marines with jump packs. In every other CSM Story I've read, Raptors were mutated, grotesque things and I thought this to be the definition of a raptor! Is this up for interpretation?
Some Raptors are like that but not all. Just because one group of Raptors is a degenerated cult of monstrosities does not mean that another group automatically is. It's all about the amount of time they are exposed to the Warp and many other factors. Besides Captain Rhodaan and Squad Kyrith are Raptors of a sort, but not the same roving warband-type as Lucoryphus and the Bleeding Eyes in ADB's Night Lords trilogy. Rhodaan and his men are more like the jump-troops of the Grand Company that have taken the designation Raptors because it fits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DjdaForce View Post
2. The Iron warriors despise mutation? Again, in Storm of Iron and several other Iron Warrior short stories, they were seen with Chaos war engines, Khorne Beserkers and other stuff. And the goal of the Warsmith in Storm of Iron is to become a Daemon-Prince! Has the fluff about them changed in past years?
Older book, older lore and again just because that group accepted mutation does not mean another has to. Honsou and Barban Falk were fine with having mutants, berserkers and other such rabble in their ranks because they didn't care. Andraaz and Rhodaan do care, they want purity in the ranks and do not want to command rabble. And as for Daemon Princes, comparing them to mutants is madness. They are two COMPLETELY different things, one is immortality and unlimited power, the other is deformation and genetic weakness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DjdaForce View Post
The first half of the book has left me disappointed: I expected some epic batttles of hundreds or thousands of CSM against orcs. What I got are 64 Space Marines who don't seem chaotic at all, the only thing they do which seems evil is plotting against each other. Ok they tread their human population like shit but I've just read the fantastic Iron Hands novel Wrath of Iron, in which the "good" SM aren't the nicest guys either....
Where would the fun in that be? Then the battle would be a forgone conclusion and it wouldn't at all challenging for the Iron Warriors to mop up the Orks and it would make the slaves in the story pointless. The 3rd Grand Company may not embrace Chaos as open-handedly as some others but that again is all down to the recurring Warhammer 40k theme that just because one group, e.g Honsou's warband, does one thing does not mean another group must do the same.

And what the hell do you mean not enough evil?? In the first few pages Rhodaan orders a slave dunked into a cauldron of molten metal because he said the word God-Emperor. And Skintaker Algol who always wears a fresh covering of slave skin, still bloody, over his armour. And their callous abandonment of janissary troopers and slaves to the Ork hordes and their execution of any slave who even looks the wrong way. These guys are plenty evil.


LotN



https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...red-souls.html - The Kabal of Shattered Souls Project Log
http://www.talkwargaming.com/search/...Book%20Reviews - Check out Talk Wargaming for reviews by Lord of the Night.
Lord of the Night is offline  
post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old 12-20-12, 12:10 PM
Chaos God of Old Night
 
Lord of the Night's Avatar
Lord of the Night's Flag is: United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: The Eternal Night
Posts: 5,028
Reputation: 48
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DjdaForce View Post
In the book, the IW aren't okay at all with obliterators....Spoiler ahead!



They have banished their only Obliterator to a prison and another Space Marine who is infected with the Virus is disregarded as weak. Which is ironic because in the end the infection will only make him stronger!
But that is just it. It's a virus. If you catch it then what's wrong with you? Why was the virus able to get a foothold in you? Answer: You are weak. The Obliterator Virus may make them stronger but it's a sign of genetic and mental weakness that the virus was even able to infect you in the first place. And yes it makes you stronger but it also makes you into a barely and rarely controllable monster who has no loyalty to anyone/anything.

So yeah it makes a Space Marine stronger, but the trade-off is that marine can no longer be trusted and will likely kill his allies out of a rage or because he thinks it'd be amusing.


LotN



https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...red-souls.html - The Kabal of Shattered Souls Project Log
http://www.talkwargaming.com/search/...Book%20Reviews - Check out Talk Wargaming for reviews by Lord of the Night.
Lord of the Night is offline  
post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old 12-20-12, 12:25 PM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 21
Reputation: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord of the Night View Post
But that is just it. It's a virus. If you catch it then what's wrong with you? Why was the virus able to get a foothold in you? Answer: You are weak. The Obliterator Virus may make them stronger but it's a sign of genetic and mental weakness that the virus was even able to infect you in the first place.
Ok accepted, that makes sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord of the Night View Post
And yes it makes you stronger but it also makes you into a barely and rarely controllable monster who has no loyalty to anyone/anything.

So yeah it makes a Space Marine stronger, but the trade-off is that marine can no longer be trusted and will likely kill his allies out of a rage or because he thinks it'd be amusing.


LotN
Aaaand again: Since when is this so? Since when are obliterators effectively Khorne Beserkers on Steroids, always eager to betray and slaughter their brothers?
No novel I've read states that these guys are uncontrollable Freaks. WarhammerWikia (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Obliterator) and the german lexicanum say that they are just Mercenaries who sell their strength for tech.
The english lexicanum even says that the IW "have vast numbers of them waiting to receive their orders" (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Obli...r#.UNMQ8nf2agE). Thats exactely the opposite of the thing you just said.
DjdaForce is offline  
post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old 12-20-12, 12:40 PM
Chaos God of Old Night
 
Lord of the Night's Avatar
Lord of the Night's Flag is: United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: The Eternal Night
Posts: 5,028
Reputation: 48
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DjdaForce View Post
Aaaand again: Since when is this so? Since when are obliterators effectively Khorne Beserkers on Steroids, always eager to betray and slaughter their brothers?

No novel I've read states that these guys are uncontrollable Freaks. WarhammerWikia (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Obliterator) and the german lexicanum say that they are just Mercenaries who sell their strength for tech.

The english lexicanum even says that the IW "have vast numbers of them waiting to receive their orders" (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Obli...r#.UNMQ8nf2agE). Thats exactely the opposite of the thing you just said.
From your own link.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warhammer wiki
As a result of their mutation, Obliterators are no longer even remotely sane. This insanity could be caused by the constant mental and physical trauma of absorbing weapons into the Obliterator's body or being biologically welded by his own body to his armour.
They are insane. You can't predict why an insane person does something, because you'd have to be insane to understand their logic. Merihem reminded me of a sociopath, somebody who views everyone around him as some lesser form of life and is willing to betray anybody for what he wants because he doesn't care about anyone else. Perhaps some remain loyal, perhaps some do become berserkers lusting for slaughter, and perhaps more end up like Merihem and become completely self-obsessed.

So what?? Just because one novel or no novel has said it before means its the ultimate truth. Again you are falling into the trap of assuming because one author said something it must be true for the entire 40k universe. To semi-quote ADB, the Warp does not do things in X, Y and Z. It is random and what it does to one person it may do the opposite to another, or something in between. Just because Merihem is a sociopathic monster does not mean every Obliterator is like that.

How is that the opposite?? Waiting to receive their orders? So they can't do that while frozen?? At no point does it say those Obliterators are walking free and easy, they could be locked up like Merihem was or maybe they are walking around enjoying their freedom. It all depends on whether or not they can be trusted not to abuse that freedom by turning on their brothers. Merihem obviously could not, but another Obliterator might be capable of being trusted.


LotN



https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...red-souls.html - The Kabal of Shattered Souls Project Log
http://www.talkwargaming.com/search/...Book%20Reviews - Check out Talk Wargaming for reviews by Lord of the Night.
Lord of the Night is offline  
Reply

  Lower Navigation
Go Back   Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums > Fiction, Art and Roleplay Game Discussion > Black Library Fiction

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome