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post #81 of 128 (permalink) Old 12-17-12, 02:42 PM
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Just finished the book 30 minutes ago, absolutely loved it. I also thought it was a nice touch to have the characters from Grahams 40k Iron Warriors. It was interesting to read what they were like in 30k after reading about them in 40k.

I think this book has put the Heresy back on track I was starting to get a bit bored with it and after reading Fear To Tread was ready to give up on it completely but after reading this and having The Betrayer to start reading tonight, not to mention the future titles coming out. The future is looking bright again for the Heresy.
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post #82 of 128 (permalink) Old 12-21-12, 05:46 AM
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i loved the book, first real introduction to Iron Warriors for me. I've started the Iron Warrior's Omnibus and I'm a bit confused, maybe someone can clear it up for me. Kroger and Forrix are Perturabo's his #3 and #1 guys in Angel's right? then why in the omnibus do they feel like they were demoted or passed over by Warsmith? (I'm only half way through Storm of Iron so please no spoilers) if it's explained in Storm just tell me to ask back once I finished with that story.

I took the reason Perturabo rebelled was due to being tired of being taken for granted by his brothers and father, they mention how the one planet had statues/paintings of Ultramarines and Imperial Fists everywhere but only one painting with Iron Warriors.

How did Lucius leave from the Iron Fist cruiser? His first fight with the Raven Guard was interrupted when Perturabo teleported, next time you read of Lucius he's on the Iron Warriors ship.
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post #83 of 128 (permalink) Old 12-21-12, 11:34 AM Thread Starter
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I think it said Fulgrim carried him, I may be wrong though and it might of just been the rest of the Emperor's Children.
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post #84 of 128 (permalink) Old 12-21-12, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kujwa View Post
i loved the book, first real introduction to Iron Warriors for me. I've started the Iron Warrior's Omnibus and I'm a bit confused, maybe someone can clear it up for me. Kroger and Forrix are Perturabo's his #3 and #1 guys in Angel's right? then why in the omnibus do they feel like they were demoted or passed over by Warsmith? (I'm only half way through Storm of Iron so please no spoilers) if it's explained in Storm just tell me to ask back once I finished with that story.
My personal theory was that after the Iron Cage incident, when the Iron Warriors finally retreated to the Eye, their Legion broke up into various warbands. At that time, the three of them (Warsmith, Forix, Kroger) formed their own warband. Hence why they are together during "Storm of Iron", thousands of years later.

Assuming this did happen, I don't think it's a matter of demotion or being passed over. Kroger was by no means a prodigy. With the destruction of his Battalion, Forrix might have already decided to be more of an advisor/champion than a commander. As such, the Warsmith may have naturally fallen into the position of command between the three.

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I took the reason Perturabo rebelled was due to being tired of being taken for granted by his brothers and father, they mention how the one planet had statues/paintings of Ultramarines and Imperial Fists everywhere but only one painting with Iron Warriors.
That's one reason, yes, but there are other factors as well. A central one is that Perturabo was first and foremost a builder of things, and thus despised siege warfare - which left him destroying things over and over. In the pursuit of the style of war he hated the most, he lost proportionately more of his sons than the other primarchs did... and he lost them in ways where they couldn't even claim glory. It all added up, basically.
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post #85 of 128 (permalink) Old 12-21-12, 12:53 PM
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I would say the disillusionment and weariness Forrix felt also likely contributed heavily to him letting the Warsmith take the lead.
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post #86 of 128 (permalink) Old 12-21-12, 02:19 PM
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Did everybody just miss the big skull whispering to Falk throughout the book? I'd say whatever power is offering him patronage clearly arranged things so that he would rise above his fellow triarchs...
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post #87 of 128 (permalink) Old 12-21-12, 02:24 PM
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Not at all, we're not discussing how Falk got his power, more of why Forrix and Kroeger so readily stepped aside to let him take over. Forrix was first captain and Kroeger was still a triarch at the end of the day. They could easily just left Falk to form their own warbands but decided to become part of his instead.
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post #88 of 128 (permalink) Old 12-21-12, 02:38 PM
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Yeah, the thing is that apparently Falk's mysterious patron seems to know that Kroeger will end up as Falk's underling.

At some point near the end, Falk becomes bossy, and Kroeger says he doesn't take orders from him, to which Falk replies "Not yet", without knowing where those words came from. That strongly suggests that Forrix and Kroeger's fates are already planned for.

But heck, for all we know, a lot of stuff can happen until Storm of Iron. Perturabo could officially designate Falk as his regent / successor upon ascension. The legion could actually start splintering into warbands after Forrix and Kroeger accept their roles as Falk's lieutenants. The legion's splitting could actually be more functional than hierarchical, so all individual warsmiths are free to do as they wish, and compete against each other, so long as they answer the call when Falk demands... Who knows...
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post #89 of 128 (permalink) Old 01-21-13, 05:26 PM
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I found this to be a largely well-done story. I felt like the Iron Warriors were exceptionally represented, and Perturabo in partcular was fleshed out in a comprehensive way. There were more than a few highlights, but as was mentioned in some of the earlier posts, it felt like too many things got introduced and either ignored or only tangentially explored. This was largely the major case for my dislike of Outcast Dead as well, so maybe my taste for McNeill's writing is more to blame than anything else.

The description of the Emperor's Children felt insincere and over the top. This may not be a negative, as they have fully given themselves to Slaanesh and crave sensation above all else. But they seemed to be without nuance, almost mindless in their pursuit of whatever pleasure suits them best. Fulgrim, in particular was the most notable example of this. Whenever I read Fulgrim, I saw Sigvald. Rather than the calculating, intelligent primarch that he is, I read him as child-like, petulant, and one-dimensional. There were a few 'moments of clarity,' but nearly the entire story left me feeling hollow with regards to the Phoenician.

Do we have a consensus on how the Raven Guard are supposed to move, fight and behave? It seems that McNeill sees the Ravens as space ninjas (much in line with his 40K Ravens in the Ultramarine series). These ninjas don't seem to exist in any other work that I've seen. Don't get me wrong, I think it's fun and interesting and unique, but it doesn't seem to fit, at least not with the picture that's been painted in basically every other story. I believe we had Sharrowkyn do a back flip in power armour at some point.

One of the things that I'd like to see more of:

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post #90 of 128 (permalink) Old 01-21-13, 06:52 PM
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I like the space ninja depiction 'a lot', much more than the depiction given by gav in deliverance lost, these where just space marines clad in black who got suckered by the alpha legion after getting their arses served on a plate @ istvan, the ninja image gives them a very cool identity in my opinion in line with the shadow killers they are,
Actually in the short story books there is one raven guard in a deathwatch team who also seems to be in line with the ninja stuff, he is also rather bad-ass
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