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post #11 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-08-12, 12:46 PM
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Guilliman wasn't not selected as Warmaster because of his personality, thats way off the mark. It's quite simply because Horus was the much more suitable candidate.
i dont see how horus was the more suitable candidate really. guilleman is known to be the best military mind out of the primarchs and seeing what he did with ultramar was definatly the best guy to build a galactic empire as close to what the emperor envisaged. horus wasnt loved by all the primarchs so choosing him seems counterproductive seeing as quite a few primarchs were thinking wtf. id like to see abit more as to why sanguinius wasnt chosen, for me he seems to command respect throughout between the primarchs and to be honest sort of has that awe about him to be the scion of the emperor. oh and considering that even horus thought that sanguinius seemed to embody everything that the emperor was, its a interesting question to be answered abit than with a brief comment that he was 'too etherel' dont you think?!

if i dont see the world the same as you how come you expect me to see a whole galaxy spanning empire the same as you do then?!
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post #12 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-08-12, 02:22 PM
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guilleman is known to be the best military mind out of the primarchs
Is he? Where did you come to that conclusion?

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horus wasnt loved by all the primarchs so choosing him seems counterproductive seeing as quite a few primarchs were thinking wtf.
The only Primarch that seemed to maintain a frosty relationship with Horus was Corax. Even the fringe Primarchs such as Mortarion, Alpharius and Perturabo were generally only close with Horus, whilst Horus maintained strong relationships with every other Primarch (bar Corax).

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id like to see abit more as to why sanguinius wasnt chosen, for me he seems to command respect throughout between the primarchs and to be honest sort of has that awe about him to be the scion of the emperor. oh and considering that even horus thought that sanguinius seemed to embody everything that the emperor was, its a interesting question to be answered abit than with a brief comment that he was 'too etherel' dont you think?!
I think the passing comment in Know No Fear serves it's purpose. Horus gained the title because of his charisma and passion, his good relationships and unanimously positive reputation, his unique bond with the Emperor, and his apparent emodiment of the Emperor's ambition. Also take into account that Horus had taken overall strategic command of the Great Crusade several times before the Ullanor Crusade and his appointment as Warmaster, perhaps suggesting that it had been the Emperor's intention to promote Horus to Warmaster all along.

Guilliman on the other hand had an unparalleled analytical mind, but not the charisma, ambition or reputation that Horus had. He also had the heavy responsibility of maintaining a semi-independent frontier empire. Guilliman's relationships amongst the Primarch brotherhood were also not as positive - Alpharius and Lorgar were certainly not keen on the Lord of Ultramar, and many others thought of him as arrogant and aloof. Would Guilliman have been able to command the loyalty and respect of Angron or Mortarion for example? Unlikely. But Horus did.

Similarly Saguinius did not fit the bill; he was not ambitious enough, not as passionate or as charismatic as Horus. KNF says it perfectly by claiming he was "too ethereal." He was widely respected and appreciated but I don't think that would have transferred perfectly into rulership. Sanguinius (like any other potential Primarch) would have relied too heavily on Horus in order to maintain their own authority as Warmaster.

Horus was the only logical choice for Warmaster.



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I do love how we don't even need CotE to comment anymore, chances are he has already said something intelligent before that can be re-applied to the current situation.
Heresy's Background FAQ. (Fluff Project)
CotE Reviews: Prospero Burns (HH Review), Age of Darkness (HH Review).
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post #13 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-08-12, 03:06 PM
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I believe one major strike against Sanguinius, in terms of being appointed Warmaster, was his anger management issues.
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post #14 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-08-12, 03:58 PM
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I believe one major strike against Sanguinius, in terms of being appointed Warmaster, was his anger management issues.
Where's that belief coming from?
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post #15 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-08-12, 04:00 PM
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Yes, I'd agree that Guilliman had all the right abilities to be Warmaster, but probably not the charisma and leadership skills to command his brothers' loyalty and obedience.

Sanguinius had charisma in spades, and a brilliant intellect, but was perhaps more the battlefield leader than the guy on the battle barge commanding a crusade.

Horus was probably the right mix of the two, although with hindsight the Emperor might have wanted to think a bit harder about the extent to which he enjoyed his brothers' devotion...

Or, to put it another way, what CotE said...

"I will kill him. I will literally kill him. With my bare hands."

- Roboute Guilliman, Primarch, XIII Legion
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post #16 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-08-12, 05:46 PM
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ill leave it as we have differing opinions then.

if i dont see the world the same as you how come you expect me to see a whole galaxy spanning empire the same as you do then?!
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post #17 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-09-12, 01:36 AM
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KNF is actually the first book I read from the Horus Heresy series, and I have to say that it's still my favorite. It's a book about lonely "What you are in the dark" heroism in the face of annihilation and touches the heart strings at the right moments - to the point that one of the biggest heroes in the novel does not even get to say a single word.

The contrast between Guilliman and Horus (from the first few books) is actually pretty stark, with the former clearly leading as part of a (cold) military formula, while the latter leading through the sheer force of his own personality. That's why the Luna Wolves essentially fall apart and panic once Horus gets wounded (and they do the monumentally stupid act of turning him over to Erebus), whereas the Ultramarines react to the possibility of losing Guilliman with "There was no chain of command, so I decided I had to build one myself."

And I have to say, I now get the Ultramarines after reading KNF. They're stick-in-the-asses, but that's because everyone around them are either unreliable (i.e. White Scars, Luna Wolves) or verging on the downright psychotic (Space Wolves, World Eaters). And they have to be the adults because no one else will; certainly not the Emperor. And that fact that Guilliman knows he's the mature one (and makes no attempt to hide it) rankles on his brothers.

By contrast, Horus (from Horus Rising) thrives off making the people around him feel good - partly as part of his leadership style, but also because he has this need to be loved and adored. The latter is what causes his many moments of self-doubt, to the point that he even thinks that Sanguinius should have been Warmaster.

Finally, a peeve: I really don't get why the fandom really likes the Loyalist Luna Wolves that much. Sure, Loken and Tarik are great in Horus Rising and he's very human for a Space Marine. But he basically does nothing along with Tarik for the next two novels, despite KNOWING that a purge is going on. They seem to have turned off their common sense in favor of constantly telling themselves that "Astartes shooting Astartes will never happen! We're safe!" (despite plenty of evidence otherwise, as Russ would happily tell you)
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