Deliverance Lost is amazing. Kudos to Gav Thorpe. *SPOILERS* - Page 8 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
Black Library Fiction Here is where you can discuss your favourite Black Library publications and graphic novels. If it's published by Black Library it goes here.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #71 of 80 (permalink) Old 03-06-12, 01:31 PM
Senior Member
 
Roninman's Avatar
Roninman's Flag is: Finland
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 507
Reputation: 3
Default

Didnt like novel that much, seems that Gavin's novels after excellent Angels of Darkness have gone this low.

This has so many problems in it, i cant even tell.

- Alpha legion infiltration totally artificial. Raven Guard were destined to die on Istvaan and they were infiltrated. But of course they were saved so infiltration was succesfull. But not by 1-2 guys but over 30 of them.
- Labyrinth scene was too streched out. I get it that its hard to get but Gav just wasted space to create some excitement to reader. He could have just made Emperor give Corax his material and instead maybe have some good dialogue between Dorn, Emperor, Corax and Malcador on that same page count.
- Making of new Marines too fast. Totally unbelievable that they make them popout in a day or less and they already are fully fighting material and even superior than normal Marines. Yes they got programmed during changing, blah. They should have propably skipped a year or two after leaving Terra and then show new Marines waking up. Didnt like so much the idea too that Alpha legion tampered with gene-seed. Always liked more the "original" idea behind all this.
- Omegon part wasnt really that great on novel, expected more from him and other Alpha legion operatives.
- Battle at the end was quite rushed and didnt serve much purpose. I dont mean battle outside since that was only backdrop on what happened inside facility, but that too didnt have much suspense and it was over before it hardly started.
- There was no real suspense of who was this traitor commander on Raven Guards ranks. Algapito was suggested few times but it seemed too obvious and then its one other who hardly got any facetime on book. Gav should have handled this one better.

Some good points though.
- I liked really much Raven Guards escape part from Isstvaan. This had most suspense on this novel so far.
- Gav is good at writing "down to earth" action scenes on smaller scale, he is actually one of the best authors on this. Im talking about scene of attack on Word Bearer's outpost.
- Whole first scene with Horus was quite great. Nothing more to say about that.

Overall this aint a bad novel, but aint in my top HH 10 list either. This could have been so much more but fell totally short.
Roninman is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #72 of 80 (permalink) Old 03-07-12, 09:41 AM
Senior Member
 
forkmaster's Avatar
forkmaster's Flag is: Sweden
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Eye of Terror!
Posts: 2,342
Reputation: 15
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roninman View Post
Didnt like novel that much, seems that Gavin's novels after excellent Angels of Darkness have gone this low.

This has so many problems in it, i cant even tell.

- Alpha legion infiltration totally artificial. Raven Guard were destined to die on Istvaan and they were infiltrated. But of course they were saved so infiltration was succesfull. But not by 1-2 guys but over 30 of them.
- Labyrinth scene was too streched out. I get it that its hard to get but Gav just wasted space to create some excitement to reader. He could have just made Emperor give Corax his material and instead maybe have some good dialogue between Dorn, Emperor, Corax and Malcador on that same page count.
- Making of new Marines too fast. Totally unbelievable that they make them popout in a day or less and they already are fully fighting material and even superior than normal Marines. Yes they got programmed during changing, blah. They should have propably skipped a year or two after leaving Terra and then show new Marines waking up. Didnt like so much the idea too that Alpha legion tampered with gene-seed. Always liked more the "original" idea behind all this.
- Omegon part wasnt really that great on novel, expected more from him and other Alpha legion operatives.
- Battle at the end was quite rushed and didnt serve much purpose. I dont mean battle outside since that was only backdrop on what happened inside facility, but that too didnt have much suspense and it was over before it hardly started.
- There was no real suspense of who was this traitor commander on Raven Guards ranks. Algapito was suggested few times but it seemed too obvious and then its one other who hardly got any facetime on book. Gav should have handled this one better.

Some good points though.
- I liked really much Raven Guards escape part from Isstvaan. This had most suspense on this novel so far.
- Gav is good at writing "down to earth" action scenes on smaller scale, he is actually one of the best authors on this. Im talking about scene of attack on Word Bearer's outpost.
- Whole first scene with Horus was quite great. Nothing more to say about that.

Overall this aint a bad novel, but aint in my top HH 10 list either. This could have been so much more but fell totally short.
You made excellente points there and I could nothing but agree with you. I however think he did the handle of the Alpha Legion on a average okay level, but nowhere close to Dan's portayal. His Raven's flight are together with ADB's Throne of lies the best audio dramas, not counting the abridged audios of novels already written in paper form, as they have unique stories, and don't follow a pattern others have. Come to a new planet, looking for something but finds something else (often some missing people) who in the end turns out to be Chaos inflicted and then in a epic final fight they escape. As Corax cried, is always makes me sob up and it shows the beginning of why he simply left since he saw no future for the primarchs.

I think he could take the Raven Guard in an awesome path, this was his first first full fledged HH-novel. I think we should give him a chance.

Last edited by forkmaster; 03-07-12 at 09:43 AM.
forkmaster is offline  
post #73 of 80 (permalink) Old 03-07-12, 04:38 PM
The Emperor Protects
 
Angel of Blood's Avatar
Angel of Blood's Flag is: Wales
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 5,262
Reputation: 41
Default

The problem though is how does Corax now become the broken Primarch we know him to be at the end. I loved Coraxs original fate, created monsters by messing up the gene-seed(not outside manipulation), breaking down, killing them all, locking himself away then emerging and setting off for the Eye only saying 'Nevermore'. I was looking forward to seeing him break down through the novel and start to become that broken man. But by the end of the novel he's accepted the 'monsters' and seems to be just as confident and sure of himself, with a purpose as he was before.
Angel of Blood is offline  
 
post #74 of 80 (permalink) Old 03-07-12, 08:31 PM
Member
 
Tywin Lannister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 87
Reputation: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel of Blood View Post
The problem though is how does Corax now become the broken Primarch we know him to be at the end. I loved Coraxs original fate, created monsters by messing up the gene-seed(not outside manipulation), breaking down, killing them all, locking himself away then emerging and setting off for the Eye only saying 'Nevermore'. I was looking forward to seeing him break down through the novel and start to become that broken man. But by the end of the novel he's accepted the 'monsters' and seems to be just as confident and sure of himself, with a purpose as he was before.
Well I can't imagine that Corax's ultimate fate will change, perhaps it will keep knawing at him but he'll hold it together until after the Heresy or even the scouring. He did seem pretty sanguine about the whole thing, but he is devoted to his legion, more so after Isstvan, and it'll get to him.

One thing I did find slightly unbelievable was that no one - not Corax, not Agapito, not the Magos and not the Custodian - connects the Alpha Legion infiltrators and their genetic experiment going suddenly and mysteriously tits up...
Tywin Lannister is offline  
post #75 of 80 (permalink) Old 03-09-12, 11:53 PM
Senior Member
 
VulkansNodosaurus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 427
Reputation: 20
Default

I've recently finished it, and enjoyed it, though with reservations. The big issue is, as has been mentioned, the "nevermore" and the meshing of DL and Corax' canon fate. I'll agree Corax still has time to break down, but that feels like it would defeat the point of the sort-of-uplifting ending.

The details didn't feel that artificial; Isstvan V was never meant to 100% wipe out the Salamanders/RG, or if it was it failed in both of these aspects (we have both Chapters in 40K today). But there was disorder, and the Alpha Legion sneaked some operatives in. The Raptors' creation- well, this is 30K, and we still have all sorts of marvelous technology. If there was a plot hole anywhere, it was (IMO) in the fact that the Emperor bothered creating the Astartes at all, rather than make all of them super-Astartes.

The Alpha Legion... there are a lot of complaints that Legion was better in its demonstration of how the XX fight, but I don't quite understand why. Certainly, the AL were better developed than the RG, which ties into my biggest issue with the novel: there just isn't that much info on what the XIX is like. One doesn't feel them set apart that much from the average of the Space Marine Legions, beyond their preferred tactics. There was some subtler stuff on this topic, but little of it is clear.

But, again, I liked it overall.

Renegades Saga contributions
(https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...tions-cry.html)
(https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...s-scarlet.html)
(https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...lesh-weak.html)
The Emperor has turned to Chaos. The dream of the Imperium has become a nightmare. But Horus and his Coalition stand against the dark, here at the end of time.

Lorgar's Betrayal
(https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...te-heresy.html)
What was broken has been mended. And what was burned away can never be reforged.
VulkansNodosaurus is offline  
post #76 of 80 (permalink) Old 03-10-12, 03:10 PM
Senior Member
 
Unknown Primarch's Avatar
Unknown Primarch's Flag is: United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Emperor's Throne Room
Posts: 745
Reputation: 1
Default

the bit i found abit lame was the emperors crappy little trap/store room for the primarch project stuff. i mean you make some quasi-dimensional prison for a ctan shard but for something maybe not as potent but still the most potent weapon the emperor has ever made, he makes something that even a ork could construct. protected by bolters and lasers?! are you kidding me! then it can be cracked open by tricking its cogs and cranks! totally absurd!

if i dont see the world the same as you how come you expect me to see a whole galaxy spanning empire the same as you do then?!

Last edited by Unknown Primarch; 03-10-12 at 03:12 PM.
Unknown Primarch is offline  
post #77 of 80 (permalink) Old 03-11-12, 03:54 AM
Feed
 
Serpion5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Space
Posts: 10,976
Reputation: 51
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknown Primarch View Post
the bit i found abit lame was the emperors crappy little trap/store room for the primarch project stuff. i mean you make some quasi-dimensional prison for a ctan shard but for something maybe not as potent but still the most potent weapon the emperor has ever made, he makes something that even a ork could construct. protected by bolters and lasers?! are you kidding me! then it can be cracked open by tricking its cogs and cranks! totally absurd!
Extra security existed in the form of nobody knowing its location, its contents being secret and the fact that it took perhaps the most mentally efficient primarch to outwit the AI controlling it? And correct me if I'm wrong but did not this labyrinth succeed in disabling a number of astartes? And Custodians? I would hardly equate such artifice to an ork.


Nonsense is our Salvation

Serpion5 is offline  
post #78 of 80 (permalink) Old 03-12-12, 01:08 AM
Senior Member
 
gridge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 134
Reputation: 1
Default

I have to say that I am no fan of Gav's writing style and usually find his characterizations a bit dull and lifeless. Furthermore, I think he focuses on pointless minutia in an effort to bring depth but instead tends to just bog down the story. This book has not changed my opinion. I apologize to the Mr. Thorpe's fans but all writers will have their detractors as well. The gold standard for me is A.D.B., which I know will not be shared by all. In short I would only recommend reading this because it is part of the HH series and contains some tidbits of information. I, unfortunately, found it a bit of a chore to get through.

Last edited by gridge; 03-12-12 at 01:34 AM.
gridge is offline  
post #79 of 80 (permalink) Old 03-14-12, 11:13 AM
Senior Member
 
nate187's Avatar
nate187's Flag is: Australia
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: north melbourne
Posts: 101
Reputation: 2
Default

Who will stop Horus? Asks the rg Russ will!!! answers one of the guys in the back. Lol nice

I'll bet you it will be the angel of death. Says a ba. Also I like how corax mentions he could kill curze well was quite confident he could. Also being on equal martial level with horus pre assension (spelling)

Cheers
nate187 is offline  
post #80 of 80 (permalink) Old 03-18-12, 02:48 PM
Senior Member
 
Unknown Primarch's Avatar
Unknown Primarch's Flag is: United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Emperor's Throne Room
Posts: 745
Reputation: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpion5 View Post
Extra security existed in the form of nobody knowing its location, its contents being secret and the fact that it took perhaps the most mentally efficient primarch to outwit the AI controlling it? And correct me if I'm wrong but did not this labyrinth succeed in disabling a number of astartes? And Custodians? I would hardly equate such artifice to an ork.

oh right and theres me thinking that the actual running primarch project had even more security yet chaos still found away of breaking through those defences and spiriting the infant primarchs away. as for corax being able to outwit the maze, im pretty sure someone like ahriman would have got through that thing seeing as he had a good crack at getting to the black library.
and as for some astartes and custodians getting ganked in there, well it been know for a standard human to kill a astartes and seeing as its been known for astartes to kill custodians then a few bolt guns fixed to a wall doesnt seem impossible to kill those guys yet could it protect against demons and chaos marines weilding chaosy powers?! most definatly not so this leads me back to the point of why use such a highgrade security system for a ctan yet something like the primarch project you get a crumby thing anyone can get into.

i expect more from the emperor, alot more..... or is it just another one of his half-arsed ideas that he doesnt think about enough?!

if i dont see the world the same as you how come you expect me to see a whole galaxy spanning empire the same as you do then?!
Unknown Primarch is offline  
Reply

  Lower Navigation
Go Back   Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums > Fiction, Art and Roleplay Game Discussion > Black Library Fiction

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome