Deliverance Lost is amazing. Kudos to Gav Thorpe. *SPOILERS* - Page 3 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
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post #21 of 80 (permalink) Old 01-04-12, 12:03 AM
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I thought it interesting that all the so called mutations in the primarchs now seem to have been deliberate on the part of the Emperor. Russ's wolfishness, Perturabo being physically tougher, Alpharius and Omegon being twins and being smaller than the rest on purpose. Those are the ones mentioned, so I think it's safe to assume Sanguinius' wings were for a reason as well.

One thing didn't ring true for me though. In a scene were Corax is seeing a flashback to the Emperor's memories from shortly after the Primarchs being snatched, we seen the Emp is in despair at the loss of his sons, but then realises it would be easier to create lite Primarchs (SMs) rather than start all over again. I was always under the impression that the SMs already existed, and that the Primarchs were the pinnacle of that process bred to lead legions that already existed. Now we have a kind of chicken or egg scenario.

If we follow the train of thought from Deliverance Lost, then TWs and SMs have nothing in common beyond being gene modified. They seem to be from two totally separate directions of research.
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post #22 of 80 (permalink) Old 01-04-12, 12:15 AM
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I thought it interesting that all the so called mutations in the primarchs now seem to have been deliberate on the part of the Emperor. Russ's wolfishness, Perturabo being physically tougher, Alpharius and Omegon being twins and being smaller than the rest on purpose. Those are the ones mentioned, so I think it's safe to assume Sanguinius' wings were for a reason as well.

One thing didn't ring true for me though. In a scene were Corax is seeing a flashback to the Emperor's memories from shortly after the Primarchs being snatched, we seen the Emp is in despair at the loss of his sons, but then realises it would be easier to create lite Primarchs (SMs) rather than start all over again. I was always under the impression that the SMs already existed, and that the Primarchs were the pinnacle of that process bred to lead legions that already existed. Now we have a kind of chicken or egg scenario.

If we follow the train of thought from Deliverance Lost, then TWs and SMs have nothing in common beyond being gene modified. They seem to be from two totally separate directions of research.
Whilst it certainly mentions the XX Primarch being engineered to be smaller, it makes no reference that i can remember as to him being deliberately a twin. And though it's certainly possible, i still believe Sanguinius wings, much like Magnus skin pigmentation was due to the warp, but it could easily be argued either way.
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post #23 of 80 (permalink) Old 01-04-12, 12:27 AM
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Whilst it certainly mentions the XX Primarch being engineered to be smaller, it makes no reference that i can remember as to him being deliberately a twin.
I'll route out the quote tomorrow, but I'm fairly sure when one of the Alpharius' is in the gene chamber he notices something about the tank were his primarchs had been that gave me the impression of twins.
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post #24 of 80 (permalink) Old 01-04-12, 12:38 AM
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Infact it's the opposite. 'Alpharius' notes that his primarchs tank is no bigger than the others, and then considers that the Emperor might never have planned for them to be twins, hence the unique bond they share.
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post #25 of 80 (permalink) Old 01-04-12, 12:59 AM
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Infact it's the opposite. 'Alpharius' notes that his primarchs tank is no bigger than the others, and then considers that the Emperor might never have planned for them to be twins, hence the unique bond they share.
I stand corrected. Maybe that's the reason they were made to be smaller than the other primarchs. He wanted a twix, but only had a mars bar wrapper, so you make each twix stick smaller.

HHHmmmm... chocolate...
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post #26 of 80 (permalink) Old 01-04-12, 02:52 AM
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Chapter 7 of Legion 'clears' this up. (Though, similarly, it doesn't undo your criticisms that the Alpha Legionaries were significantly less impressive/endearing/engaging than those in Legion.) That is: the Alpha Legion believe in humanity's future. Not the Imperial Utopia, not the obscure goals of the Emperor, nor even Horus' madcap rebellion: they seem to have placed themselves in the position where they can 'play all the sides', which includes the Cabal.

In that regard: the Cabal are the catalyst for what the Alpha Legion are doing, but they're not necessarily the key motivation or inspiration.

If you take Ch7 of Legion (and the 'arguments' espoused in it) at face-value for an honest look at what the senior ranks of the Alpha Legion actually feel/believe, then that's great.

Unfortunately, capitalising on that aspect wasn't really achieved/pursued in DL, which is a fine shame. The Epilogue does, at least, chime with this outlook. (In my esteem, at least.)
I am aware of the Alpha Legion's philosophy as portrayed in the infamous Chapter 7, and given some consideration I spoke out of turn in regards to the epilogue seeming strange. I concede that point.

Omegon killing the Cabal agent represented the Alpha Legion's desire to claim the gene-tech for themselves rather than destroying it, which in turn represented the Alpha Legion wishing to be in a position where they could control (Alpharius's only fear being not in control of a situation - Legion) the passing of events. It does still raise some minor points though in my mind, the Alpha Legion's desire to 'play' the Cabal (just as they do both mainstream factions involved in the Heresy) as well as still being dedicated to the defeat of the Emperor and therefore Chaos (as far as we are aware - which I note is tenuous); They must have needed to have remained on cordial terms with the Cabal in order to achieve that goal, rather than having them as hostile enemies which could have been the result of outright disobeying their wishes and killing one of their envoys. Directly/violently confronting the Cabal rather than 'playing' them whilst remaining on civil terms to make use of their foresight/knowledge/wisdom seems illogical.

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That is: the Alpha Legion believe in humanity's future. Not the Imperial Utopia, not the obscure goals of the Emperor, nor even Horus' madcap rebellion...
That certainly seemed to be the case in Chapter 7. But when confronted by the Cabal and asked to join Horus to defeat Chaos, Alpharius cited the Emperor's greatest aspiration (of overthrowing Chaos) as a justifiable reason to do just that. It was claimed that the Alpha Legion acted in the ultimate interest of the Emperor because their actions would bring about the destruction of the Emperor's ultimate enemy: the Dark Gods. But this seems to fly in the face of the Alpha Legion's dedication to humanity (who would be destroyed in the process of destroying Chaos) and the Emperor (who would also die in the process).

The problem (although I actually think this constitutes most of the intrigue) with the Alpha Legion is that we don't know their initial reasoning and motives, let alone if and how they change throughout the Age of Darkness. What I think we can say for sure is that they are not dancing to anyone's tune but their own; we have concrete evidence that they are duping Horus (by presenting him with a flawed element of the genetic template and keeping knowledge of the Cabal secret), the Cabal (by disregarding their wishes and killing their envoy) and of course the Imperials (à la Liar's Due). But apart from that we don't truly know that they are aiming for.



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I do love how we don't even need CotE to comment anymore, chances are he has already said something intelligent before that can be re-applied to the current situation.
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post #27 of 80 (permalink) Old 01-04-12, 11:03 AM
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I'm not reading any of the comments in this thread until i'm done with the book but I HAD To post here and say that yes, I am enjoying this book lot's. Well done Gav.
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post #28 of 80 (permalink) Old 01-04-12, 03:53 PM
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Just finished, and I really liked it. I'm thinking that the Alpha Legion does indeed use the primarch material to create more Legionaries, but I doubt it's as easy to remove the "daemon blood" as that Order of the Dragon(Which Dragon would that be? ) guy said it would be. My theory is that the new batch are Chaos-infused and that's why we see all the Alpha Legion Chaos stuff later on in 32K-40k. The AL never intended to side with Chaos, but eventually the taint became known and the closet-loyalists broke off from the tainted Legionaries, hence why they make cults and look all Chaosy even though that contradicts the disdain the Heresy-era AL has for the Warp.

Just a theory, though.

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post #29 of 80 (permalink) Old 01-04-12, 11:48 PM
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Intriguing points, CotE. I'm perhaps being a little too set in my ways, but this:

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But apart from that we don't truly know that they are aiming for.
seems, again, quite accommodated by Ch7 [i]Legion.

That is: their big aim is humanity's survival and that humanity (or the Alpha Legion) is involved in controlling it. No 'God-Emperor', no Horus, no Chaos Gods and, laughably, certainly no aliens.

Simply: the Alpha Legion aren't willing to sell out humanity as a whole. They'll sell out the Emperor. And Horus. And the cabal. But the species?

They won't even let themselves be in complete control...because there are always other 'heads of the hydra' which are willing to argue or intervene. Even by 40k, it could be argued, they're still doing that. By 40k, really, are they much worse than the 'bad end' of Radical Inquisitors? I mean, sure, Voldorius is a right twerp, but contrast the work of Bronislaw Czevak: in cahoots with daemon hosts, witches, aliens and renegades of any description...yet he's perhaps one of the most gloriously, unashamedly 'free thinking' and 'profoundly visionary' characters out there. To say the character's principled is something of an understatement.

But both Czevak and the Alpha Legion have an odd transcendence of a story's goals, or even a person's goals. It's somewhat difficult to articulate.

Sorry, I'm rambling. I'll get a point one day, probably.

But it all rests on Ch7 being 'true'. (If it's all lies or theatrics, well...anything goes.) As if it's 'true', then as long as the Alpha Legion are calibrated right to be 'self-organising', or indeed, like a hydra...then they can operate well enough to properly have humanity walk the knife edge...hopefully...
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post #30 of 80 (permalink) Old 01-05-12, 12:27 AM
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You're right, that does seem to be their long-term intention in Chapter 7.

But they would have to be willing to sacrifice the human species if they truly aligned with the Cabal's aim to destory the Primordial Annihilator. If they weren't willing to do so, then they were playing the Cabal all along. If that was the case and they were not willing to sacrifice humanity and align themselves with the Cabal's plan, then (based on Chapter 7) they were acting in the interest of humanity and attempting to preserve the species (and as you said, not the Emperor, Horus or anyone inparticular - but the species as a whole). But having knowledge concerning the nature of Chaos and some of it's capabilities (from the Cabal), it does then beg the question of how were they going to protect or preserve humanity? Without the Emperor, without the Cabal, without Horus, were they capable of preserving the species in the face of Chaos? They were only a single Legion after all.

Chapter 7 makes reference to humanity being an "imperfect species", a need to "manage and maintain the flaws of man" and claims that "utopian goals are ultimately counter-intuitive to species survival". I know this has no basis (only simple speculation on my part) but perhaps the Alpha Legion come to embrace Chaos on a philosophical basis, seeing it as a means to "manage and maintain the flaws of man" and to prevent chasing utopian ideals which they see as "counter-intuitive to species survival". Just a thought.



Quote:
Originally Posted by cegorach View Post
I do love how we don't even need CotE to comment anymore, chances are he has already said something intelligent before that can be re-applied to the current situation.
Heresy's Background FAQ. (Fluff Project)
CotE Reviews: Prospero Burns (HH Review), Age of Darkness (HH Review).

Last edited by Child-of-the-Emperor; 01-05-12 at 12:39 AM.
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