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post #71 of (permalink) Old 09-25-10, 10:39 AM
LordWaffles
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurrent View Post
Assumptions lead to many things but often enough they do not lead to the truth, I've played in 37 5th edition tournaments. That doesn't count the 100s of 3rd and 4th edition tournaments I have played though.
And yet you use IoS.
Peculiar.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurrent View Post
You can bring up mathammer all damn day. But it still does not change real world situations. Units are not always in cover. Units are not always going to miss x of x times, nor pass x of x saves. Sure you have probability, however games aren;t always average now are they? Run the mathhammer down on all the 'ard boys tourney's and even the world tourney's and the people should not have rolled what they did in each situation. if you run by the average roll for each match well then you might be right in the perfect little virtual calculator world you must play in, however above average rolls happen, under average rolls happen. In a fluke assault I have seen basic 10 IG guardsmen take out SS/TH termies in assualt after receiving the charge. Your mathammer uses probability to show why it shouldn't happen, but it does happen.
Mathhammer is what GENERALLY happens on the field of battle. It's what happens MOST of the time, it's what happens A GREATER PERCENTAGE THAN NOT. It is what you can FORM A PLAN AROUND.

Forming a plan around the outliers is folly. It'd be like planning on your opponent dying of aids, boredom, and the gum disease gingivitis all at once.

Now then, you say units are not in cover. To that I will simply reply that you are bad.
Playing as an infantry templar list I'm not out of cover unless I want to be. Ever. Period. Unless you double lash me out of it. Try not playing mech and you'll see what I mean. You just have to have 50% of a walking unit TOUCH that terrain piece.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurrent View Post
My assumption is that you take your models out and deploy them. Then you wait for your adversary to do the same, then you pull out your laptop, plug your army and your enemy's army into a calculator and print out the match result after 6 rounds. Then you pack up and say "Your list is bullocks." I mean obviously you don't even need dice to play a dice and miniature based war game, after all you have a combat calculator to tell you the result of every action in the game, thus proving your self an excellent mathammer player and a horrible wargamer.
Actually I do go up to the table and immediately tell my opponent whether their list is bullocks or not. If they take offense it makes them drive harder and act stupid, and I can drink their tears for sustenance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inquisitor Malaclypse View Post
exactly. it doesn't matter what we think is better or not. he's asking for advice on list he built. there's nothing wrong with suggesting different builds, even drastically different builds, but if he's set on playing a certain army with a given theme, it's on the forum members to either back off this thread or give him advice, and let the OP decide what he wants to play.

it's his army he'll be playing, and he's the one buying and painting the models he wants. in the end what we think or say doesn't matter.

good hunting.
I would like to see him play an army that is capable of being used for fun and for competition. Tzeentch is exceedingly hard to do so

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Sullen One View Post
So that's with nowt but bolters then?
When I said basic gear, I suppose I should have said "The standard gear given to every plague marines squad that was ever fielded with the intent to win a game". To me, that means with just the basic, everyday gear of champ with fist and double melta/plasma.



Quote:
Originally Posted by The Sullen One View Post
It's helpful if your figuring out the flaws in how he plans to use his list without fundamentally changing that list.
Uh sure.
Use them in rhinos. Take sorcerors. Don't die.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jondoe297 View Post
f#*k mathhammer . . . . I jest but seriously, mathhammer is a tool to use to assess a situation its not the answer! Because oh right we roll dice and that is random! (yer probability and all that bollocks)
the dude hasn't asked for a double lash cheese filled slaughterer fest, he's asked for help to build a competent fluffy army! Whats more the main point is forgotten . . . . Thousand sons look awesome! Ahriman is a brilliant model!
My advice to the actual list run a squad of t-sons but back them up with nilla marines with mot!
With the interest sparked I think you need to do a blog now including a win rate to satisfy the nay sayers!
I don't believe you have ever taken a math class. We use mathhammer in order to devise a controlled lab setting to pit one thing against another. It shows us what usually happens, excluding outliers as you cannot successfully always be an outlier nor should you plan for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IntereoVivo View Post
DP w/ Wings, MoT, Warptime, WoC
You might be better off saving the points on WoC and instead not including it. Your warptiming prince will stomp face enough, instead why not enhance his range with doombolt?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IntereoVivo View Post
Lord w/ Termie Armor, MoT, Daemon Weapon, Combi-Melta
This is bullocks. Bring a prince.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IntereoVivo View Post
3x Terminators w/ 1x CF, 1x HF, 3x Combi-Melta
Im seeing these more and more, and Im never offended by them

Quote:
Originally Posted by IntereoVivo View Post
Land Raider
Wtf no. Bad monkey. Termiantors DS in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IntereoVivo View Post
9x TSons w/ Doombolt, Rhino
9x TSons w/ Doombolt, Rhino
9x TSons w/ Doombolt, Rhino
Honestly I'd advocate over the IoT vanilla marines. At least you get special weapons/cheaper

Quote:
Originally Posted by IntereoVivo View Post
3x Obliterators
3x Obliterators
Defiler w/ Havoc Launcher
The MOST optimum list is oblits in squads no bigger than two. And defilers stink so toss that, shove over two oblits to make another squad and this isn't bad. If you feel you need the cannon take a DP Vindi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whizzwang View Post
I want to see LordWaffles table, he seem to be under the impression that every single squad in every single army will be in cover 100% of the time though 100% of games.

I think he plays too much city fight and not enough normal 40K
It's because I'm not a trash player that I can get cover when I need it. Planning ahead, experience and being able to read the board make it possible for my units to be in cover every time without fail(Outside lash).

As for regular 40k I can hypothesize that I've played more than you as I'm not the one asking for a tzeentch list that is also competitive.

Also burn.

Also guys, how low do we have to scrape if we ignore mathhammer. Really. Solid advice I can see ignoring, dreamed up tactics and counterpoints I can see being ignored, but mathhammer? You can't fudge the numbers on it if used properly. If my math was off point it out but don't throw out the building blocks of society because you don't like the truth I bring. We need math! Math is good!

I keep forgetting how hilarious my old posts are.

It's not a question of who will let me, it's a question of who will stop me.
You fight for nothing! You are nothing!

Last edited by LordWaffles; 09-25-10 at 10:46 AM.
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