Versus The Ork Horde - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
40k Tactics Discuss the art of war in the 41st millenium. Exceptional topics will be stickied.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-18-08, 03:26 PM Thread Starter
Executive Nitpicker
 
Galahad's Avatar
Galahad's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Tacoma, WA
Posts: 8,276
Reputation: 15
Default Versus The Ork Horde



Greenskins got themselves a really sick new codex, and there's a lot of abusable builds to be had there...but the one that is going to be seen the most is likely to be the flat old horde.

Orks substitute the number of models in their mob for their LD score, and mobs of 11 or more are fearless. What's worse is Boyz can come in mobs of 30 on foot, or even squeeze 20 into a battlewagon.

Big mobs are often armed with shootas and big shootas...they may be BS2, but a 30 strong mob is still going to land 18 S4 shoota hits and 3 S5 Big Shoota hits on an average set of rolls...that's a lot of fore to absorb and very hard to counter.

What's worse is, where there's one mega-mob, there's likely to be another. So you could sic a pack of speeders on Mob A, but Mob B is just going to turn them into confetti.

So how do you deal with the green tide?

-=============]xxxxo Galahad oxxxx[=============-
Check out the Heresy Combat Calculator -- MathHammer Made Easy!



Codex: Angels Errant. Read it, please.
Heresy Forum Rules -- Read them, damnit!
Reporting: When/How/Why -- Read that too!
"...remember the Golden Rule: Chill out, they're only plastic spacemen!" -Brother Jazzman
"Galahad is 100% correct in his explanation. Anyone who says otherwise to [him] is vastly mistaken." -The Wraithlord
"You know what? Fuck DC comics." -Robert Downey Junior




Last edited by Galahad; 04-21-08 at 04:48 PM.
Galahad is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-18-08, 04:07 PM
Senior Member
 
Sword Slasher's Avatar
Sword Slasher's Flag is: England
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 273
Reputation: 1
Default

I use strong yet rapid fire weaponary to wittle them down then (believe it or not) charge them! This tactic sometimes works but it's the best one I can come up with.

What do you think?

Sword Slasher is offline  
post #3 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-18-08, 04:17 PM
Senior Member
Hespithe's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,648
Default

Well, at 1500pts, and versing:

2x Mek with KFF
2x 30 Ork Boyz
2x 3 Killer Kans
2x Orky Dread
1x Warbuggy
(( that might be all, might not. I seem to recall a unit of Lootas, but I don't remember how many... no more than 10, though))

I was fielding my Vassal Heresy Online Tourney list of

1x Farseer on Jetbike w/ Guide
3x Vypers w/ Shuricannons, Scatterlasers
2x 8 Dire Avengers w/ Bladestorm
1x 10 Banshees w/ Executioner
3x Wave Serpent w/ Stones
2x Fire Prism w/ HField, Stones, Shuricannon


The combined firepower of the Vypers, Serpents, and Prisms took out one complete unit of Orks by the 3rd turn, and dented the second. A bit of antitank from the Serpents (EML, Scatterlaser, Starcannon) put paid to one unit of kans and most of the second as well getting rid of the buggy. Bladestorming and a Banshee assault got rid of the second Ork unit, leaving just an immobilized kan and a few scattered boyz on the field.

Granted, this was very soon after the new 'Dex was released, and I did not have to contend with multiple Lootas or SAGs. What matters most, in my opinion, is the proper use of cover to limit incoming fire, while allowing you to maximize your ARMY'S firepower on one portion of the Ork horde at a time. Taking out a chunk of the army per turn will be your only chance at victory, objective scenario or no.
Hespithe is offline  
 
post #4 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-18-08, 04:59 PM
Spored to be Wild
 
morfangdakka's Avatar
morfangdakka's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Southern California
Posts: 4,376
Reputation: 30
Default

Just like the last edition orks. Ordance template weapons and multiple shot weapons. So Basilisk, Leman Russ battle cannon, hellhound, and heavy bolters.
Regular marines if they can stay out of range of shoota can hit the orks from 24 inches away and only the ork big shootas will be able to hit back.

So it sounds weird but back up or move to stay out of shoota range and concentrate fire power on one mob and blast it to pieces.

Battlewagon is the orks landraider so anything that will take out a landraider will take it out. Mega Nobs are ork terminators so anything will take out a terminator will take them out.

Since I play orks it is especailly difficult dealing with an ork army. I like to take lobba or kannons big guns crews, a battle wagon and kommando's lead by Snikkrot with 2 burnas. They infiltrate and attack the rear armor of the battle wagon or attack the loota squad and SAG at the back of the army. THat usually buys me one more round of lobba shots to drop on troops.

Either way ork on ork viloence is going to be bloody with a high body count on both sides but is usually fun as all get out.


Red Orc
"Ahh, isn't Morfang sweet, like a great big 350-pound (that's 25 stone, UK users!) ball of cuddly death...?"


God, gives children to people so that death won't seem so disappointing.
morfangdakka is offline  
post #5 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-18-08, 05:11 PM
Senior Member
 
Revelations's Avatar
Revelations's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 1,124
Reputation: 1
Default

The mantra "Orkz is neva beetin in battl!" reaches a whole new level with the introduction of their latest codex. How can one deal with a very deadly combination of; cheap units, great hand to hand and great shooting? Who are the Orks good against? Pretty much everything except AV14 vehicles. Gee... that's a great weakness isn't it?

Point-4-Point, I don't think anything comes close to a generic Ork. They have small range fire with upgrades at both armor cracking and troop raking shots, that can be fired on the move no less. The oppertunity of fleeting remains available with a deliciously vicious charge. They also have a horrendous amount of wounds to screen deadly Power Klaw wielding Nobs who even have an extra wound for grins. Top it off with near fearlessness and a strange yet affective stat-line. Yah... that's not nasty at all now is it?

But, we're not completely drowning in the Green Tide just yet. We have some things to work with; they don't have great armor. While the whole army could potentially have 5+ Inv Saves, their normal armor is pretty useless, minor AP values will take care of that. Their vehicles aren't that tough, so heavy support can be allocated toward both light AV pen and troop raking shoots; autocannons and heavy bolters over lascannons for Ork killing. Even their vehicles don't have that great of weaponry, so you still have options when it comes to targets.

They aren't that good against armor. Sure they have a lot of dice, but their AP values are too high to hurt most armor, so heavier troops aren't a bad idea against them. Terminators can sit pretty laughing off most attacks. Higher armor vehicles, while expensive, will usually last the entire game so long as they keep their distance from the PK wielding Nobs. If it's a choice of speed Vs toughness, you want Toughness against Orks.

You don't need anything special to take down Orks. But what you do need is a lot of everything else. Save points from buying cools expensive toys that are only good against one thing and throw in some extra small arms fire.

Templates! An Orks worst nightmare. Flamers, Blasts and Ordnance. It's a game of bowling and the Orks are the pins, knock as many of them down as you can. They are a Horde army, even when mechanized and are usually tightley packed no matter what. So what if you scatter? There's more Orks any direction you head.

And to conclude, I'll dust off an old cheesnut from the main rule book; "Concentrate fire power one a single target until it is utterly obliterated, then move on to the next. That is the way to secure victory". If a squad has a hand full of Orks left in it, finish it off!

Pondering...
Revelations is offline  
post #6 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-18-08, 05:56 PM Thread Starter
Executive Nitpicker
 
Galahad's Avatar
Galahad's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Tacoma, WA
Posts: 8,276
Reputation: 15
Default

the problem with trying to outrange orks with marines is, while a bolter can reach 24" if you stay still and the shoota is only 18"...the Shoota is also an assault weapon, so the orks move up 6" and suddenly your marines either have to move (and cut their range to 12") or start soaking up huge amounts of fire.

As for orks vs heavy armour...they are indeed weak against AV14...most of their weapons cap out at S8, with little or no AP1 to be had...but don;t underestimate 15 tank bustas. On average, that's 5-6 hits, which means chances are at least one glance, assiming they didn;t close in with tank hammers and tankbusta bombs.

A Land Raider Crusader can do a lot of damage to orks and sffer very little risk of being destroyed, just steer clear of assault range

-=============]xxxxo Galahad oxxxx[=============-
Check out the Heresy Combat Calculator -- MathHammer Made Easy!



Codex: Angels Errant. Read it, please.
Heresy Forum Rules -- Read them, damnit!
Reporting: When/How/Why -- Read that too!
"...remember the Golden Rule: Chill out, they're only plastic spacemen!" -Brother Jazzman
"Galahad is 100% correct in his explanation. Anyone who says otherwise to [him] is vastly mistaken." -The Wraithlord
"You know what? Fuck DC comics." -Robert Downey Junior



Galahad is offline  
post #7 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-18-08, 06:31 PM
Senior Member
 
Culler's Avatar
Culler's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,372
Reputation: 1
Default

Some of this has been said, but I'll give my take on it after playing with the new orks for a while and against them a few times.

There are 3 things that Orks don't do well and that a crafty opponent can capitalize on (I'm only mentioning viable ork units here. Things like flash gitz are a little unreliable):

1. Taking out medium to heavy vehicles (AV 12-14), especially heavy vehicles. Orks can field a lot of good str 5 weaponry and so can deal with light vehicles very well but their str 8 weapons are few and generally inaccurate and they've really not got anything higher than str 8. Rokkits are too inaccurate in ork mobs and tankbustas are a point sink that have to have a vehicle purchased for them, so the most effective str 8 weaponry they can field are warbuggies, deffkoptas, kannons, and killa kans which are all fairly fragile. Lootas are another ork option to deal with light to medium armor, and unlike the other options actually have good range, but they too are fairly vulnerable, even in 4+ cover.

2. Taking out heavily armored infantry from range. The only thing that the orks have that's good at taking out heavily armored foes (terminators or other 2+ saves) is the shokk attack gun. Taking it out is very difficult due to the mek's independent character status. If your opponent lacks one of these, you're good to go, provided you can stay out of melee range. 3+ saves are also somewhat difficult for orks to deal with, but the incredible ork massed firepower can still reliably bring down marine squads. In melee, powerklaws generally make up for the orks not dealing with 2+ saves at range very well, so keep your terminators out of melee with orks (shocking, i know).

3. Taking out foes at long range. Orks aren't much of a threat until they're up close. They aren't going to be much of a threat on the first turn, or even second sometimes if you've taken out the right units. Most of their weaponry is limited in range. 18" away from orks is where you'll get hurt the worst. 24" is the max range of many of their special stuff. 36" away all you've really got to worry about are big shootas and maybe some ordnance. The exception to this is again lootas with their 48" range. Seeing as how they do well 1.5 out of 3 things the orks do poorly, they should be a priority target.


Ork armies are very competitive now, but a lot of fun to play and play against. There are 3 basic flavors: mechanized, horde, and horde with fast elements. There are also deffwing armies and dreadmobs, but those are rare and not that effective. Biker armies are a little more common (and I play them fairly often) but very vulnerable to getting shot up.

Horde - The really helpful thing to do against horde orks is to deploy yourself with a denied flank (basically you put the bulk of your army on one side of the table while his size forces him to spread across the whole table, thereby forcing half of his army to have to run an extra turn or two to come to bear on your forces), which works against all horde armies. Focus your efforts on one portion of his army at a time and you'll not have much trouble, provided you're not specialized for anti-MEQ (thousand sons armies just don't handle orks well).

Horde with fast elements - This army is IMO the most lethal ork army. The army functions as anvil and hammer, with bikers or stormboyz or other fast units hitting one flank hard on the ork player's second turn or taking out the good anti-horde elements of the opponent's army. The horde elements then follow up, mopping up anything remaining. At worst, the fast elements buy the horde elements a few turns of walking to get within their effective range. Usually it forces the opponent to try to engage both elements at once, allowing both to do their job. The best part about this army is that it isn't affected by the denied flank deployment strategy that works so well against hordes. Simply being able to bring your whole army to bear against your foe is worth it in and of itself.

Mechanized - Mechanized ork lists are very common, but there is one reason that I won't use them that most people seem to forget. Sure ramshackle protects the boyz if the trukk gets destroyed, but if someone gets a penetrating hit on your trukk and doesn't destroy it, there's still a forced disembarkation, and 5 of the 12 orks aboard die, on average, neutering the squad. The way to fight mechanized orks is to target the transports first and then go after the squads within.

Whenever I fight orks, I simply prioritize my targets and eliminate threats as they come up. For example, with my tau against a mechanized ork army with 2 big loota squads I deployed my tanks on the right half of the table, leading my opponent to put much of his army on that half, and then I put my army on the other half, resulting in a large part of his army taking an extra turn to get at my troops. First turn I wiped all 20 lootas out of their 4+ cover with my shooting. Then he moved his transports (which were closer to me) and his bikes (which were further away) as far as possible. Then I shot up his transports and the squads that they carried. Then his bikes came up, so in my turn I wiped them out and worked on some of the entangled ork passengers. Against horde armies you can just dwindle the mobs as they get closer (focusing on fast elements first), and then focusing on any that get too near.

As orks, there are certain things that really just kick my butt for various reasons. War walkers with scatter lasers x2 (and guided by a farseer) outrange my stuff and utterly rape pretty much everything orks have. Hellhounds scare me too, though I haven't had to fight one yet. Getting flamed from 24" away by a str 6 ap 4 flamer is scary, and orks have a hard time with armor. Space Wolf terminators with runic charms earn a place in my list for each having an extra wound, even if you get through the 2+ save. If you're shooting at a unit of 6, and manage to get 6 failed saves, you've maybe killed 1 terminator (1 in 6 will fail their reroll). The eldar doom power is pretty harsh too, since orks have to get close. Bladestorming dire avengers into a doomed ork mob are devastating, and the fact that doom allows multiple eldar to shoot at the same mob with the reroll benefit means that big ork mobs get taken down efficiently.
Other templates are OK but if the ork player spaces out his boyz then each shot if going to kill only 30 points worth of orks or so out of normal mobs. Any anti-infantry weapons with lots of shots are generally good though.

Hope that helps. If I think of anything else I'll post it.
Culler is offline  
post #8 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-18-08, 11:54 PM
Senior Member
 
Steel Rain's Avatar
Steel Rain's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Oklahoma City
Posts: 995
Reputation: 1
Default

Shoot them with railguns.
I'm sorry, I had to say it.
But anyways, from an IG perspective, we deal with Ork hordes in close to the same fashion as we deal with bug hordes. Heavy bolters heavy bolters heavy bolters. A few specialty tanks will pretty much win the day in this fight. Leman Russ Conqueror with heavy bolter mounts, Hellhounds, and Leman Russ Exterminators. Any vehicle that can pump out at least 10 shots a turn will work. This is also one of the rare cases where I would recommend mortar squads for your HQ. There is nothing wrong with dropping a couple small templates to complement those tanks. Don't forget the fire support teams too!
Predator Destructors, Dreadnaughts with assault cannons and heavy flamers, and Land Speeder Tornados would work for Space Marines. You don't REALLY have to worry about anti-tank that much. You will most likely have something in your army to take out high AV vehicles already.

Quote:
*sigh* I have to point out that despite what you see in games, lasrifles win wars. Just because lasrifles suck at killing superhuman killing machines in power armor does not mean that they are bad weapons. You are shooting them at the wrong targets. The most common enemy the Imperium faces is lightly armored humans armed with lasguns or autoguns, NOT SPACE MARINES.
-me
Steel Rain is offline  
post #9 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-19-08, 02:07 AM Thread Starter
Executive Nitpicker
 
Galahad's Avatar
Galahad's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Tacoma, WA
Posts: 8,276
Reputation: 15
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steel Rain View Post
Shoot them with railguns.
I'm sorry, I had to say it.
Actually, Railheads with submunitions: S6 AP4 Large Blast...

Anyway, Culler makes some very good points, as usual. I'm going to have to think about how I play my orks...

-=============]xxxxo Galahad oxxxx[=============-
Check out the Heresy Combat Calculator -- MathHammer Made Easy!



Codex: Angels Errant. Read it, please.
Heresy Forum Rules -- Read them, damnit!
Reporting: When/How/Why -- Read that too!
"...remember the Golden Rule: Chill out, they're only plastic spacemen!" -Brother Jazzman
"Galahad is 100% correct in his explanation. Anyone who says otherwise to [him] is vastly mistaken." -The Wraithlord
"You know what? Fuck DC comics." -Robert Downey Junior



Galahad is offline  
post #10 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-19-08, 03:09 AM
Senior Member
 
Mad King George's Avatar
Mad King George's Flag is: Ukraine
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Manchester
Posts: 1,210
Reputation: 1
Default

what has worked for me lately is to charge them.

it stops them shooting at me and it stops them getting bonus;s.

also if that strategy is a no no.

i hide in or behind terrain away from there shooter troops

and lure them in i then charge out of terrain or from behind it and strike with my first wave a squads in turn 1 then in turn 2 i make my bikers charge in 2nd

this usually works as i have enough troops / transport to footslog it to there looters if my scouts haven't killed them yet

Space Wolves
W-L-D
4-1-0
Biel Tan
W-L-D
0-0-0
Mad King George is offline  
Reply

  Lower Navigation
Go Back   Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums > Warhammer 40K > 40k Tactics

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome