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post #1 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-29-08, 03:26 AM Thread Starter
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Default Versus The Daemon Prince



They're big, they're scary...they can take a shot to the face from a bloody Titan and keep walking, it's the Daemon Prince, centerpiece of most new Chaos armies.

Wings are a popular addition, as are psychic powers. They're utterly lethal in close combat, and with the right powers can be deadly threats in the shooting phase as well. With a high toughness, a 3+/5++ (4++ with tzeentch) save and immunity to Instant Death, these multiwound monsters are very hard to kill, and not easy to ignore.

So how do you bring them down?

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post #2 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-29-08, 03:49 AM
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I have no idea. That's why I suggested it. I've tried firing everything I have at it with no luck. I suppose fielding a Grey Knight ally would work

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post #3 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-29-08, 04:10 AM
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They dont have the highest toughness, 5 right? Anything ap3 and str 4 or better would do the trick. I know they have a 5+ inv., but how often will they make that roll? 1/3 of the time. So in theory 5 shots hitting him and wounding with ap3 or better should kill him every time.

The trick is getting that to happen. Plasma guns, Missile lauchers, lascannons, meltaguns, a host of tau weaponry for ranged. In cc Powerfists or the like should do nicely. anyone using the demon dosent want to have to roll the 5+ save so dont give him the ability to do anything but.

It really depends on what your fielding. Psychic hoods would be great to negate lash and other effects they might have.

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post #4 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-29-08, 04:15 AM
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With probably many taking the addition toughness, the 6+ toughness on these will make them deadly, virtually invulnerable if Nurgle, with autocannons only wounding 4+.

Part 1
Bypass
If you can ignore their armour, then you're going to limit them to a significantly less powerful invulnerable save. Lascannon's are ideal for this - The Terminus Ultra pattern in Apocalypse is perfect, 5 Lascannon's can reduce the behemoth to a pile of slag.

However, as you won't always be playing Apocalypse, you can't always rely on these weapons. However, a Predator Annhilator with 2 Las Sponsons will fulfil the same role, as will a Lascannon Armed Devastator Squad, maybe with a Razorback, lascannon turret naturally. A thunderhammer armed Terminator Assault squad will reduce that Rampaging World Eater Deamon Prince to a Slow and Steady beast.

Tau have Rail-guns, depending on whether they have bodyguards, and/or a 3+ save, then submunitions could be used, if not rely on solid slug.

Necrons Gauss Weaponry will provide a rending shot occasionally, although their weaponry falls under the next section.

Eldar lance weaponry or starcannon, depending again on bodyguard and saves.

Imperial Tanks can also blow it apart - the Basilisk template, large as it is can easily punch through the armour, knocking it down to its invulnerable save, while wounding on 2's.

As a note - Melta's may sound good, but unless you've got a multi-melta, buy a plasma gun - rapid firing AP2 weapons = good.
Part2
Swamp
When your Chaos Lord / Daemon Prince is about to hit your lines, you'll want something fast firing, of adequate strength and if possible a high AP.

Necrons are the best at this, Rapid Fire, Rending Weaponry, means those 20 Necron warriors won't look a tasty prospect, despite those 5 Terminators your opponent brought to make the prince as uninviting as possible, 40 shots, with possibly 6/7 shots rending, of which 3/5 may get through, an additional 4/5 wounds caused, and with 1 or 2 not saved, you can cause in excess of 7 wounds if you're extremely lucky. Assaulting a unit which can then just get up after is not a brilliant plan after that.

Heavy Bolters, Starcannons, Scatterlasers, Assault Cannons, Autocannons, and PLASMA GUNS are your best friend here.
Part 3
Combat
When it comes to Nitty gritty combat, you can't get much better than Chaos at combating it - If they still have the Dread Axe, mount that on a Monstrous Creature, and get the charge in with a squad of Terms / Combat Marines to tip the balance in weight of numbers, and you have a trapped Daemon Prince, with no save.

Space Marines armed with Thunder Hammers can stun the Daemon Prince, until you can get some Lightning Claws into the creature, the re-roll making the wounding easier, and the Thunder Hammer wounding on a 2/3 (if Nurgle).

Eldar Banshees, although with power weapons tend to be a bit too Strength 3 for their own good. You're best staying out of combat, as even the Exarch will require a 5+ to wound with the Double Weapon (forget name, sorry).

Tyranids can swamp the beast with Hormagaunts, while not shooting, the sheer number of attacks, they're bound to fail. A Broodlord leading genestealers can easily go toe-to-toe with a full retinue.

Tau - no comment. Not even Kroot are up to this. But you already knew this.

Necrons - a bit slow, but then again, I'd advised taking powerfists or equivalents earlier. Pariahs and flayed ones can be more than sufficient. You might want to stick to shooting.

Daemonhunters - Grey Knights. No more needs to be said. 10 Terminators, Captain with Holocaust in addition to his squad, will blow apart the enemies, and can seriously wound the Prince.

Guard - Combat you say? Take the Grey Knights as Allies if you want combat.

Sisters - Swamp with Bolters, Flamers and Meltas is more your game. Unless you have a penitent engine and arco flagellants, or sisters repentia you can time to hit the daemon prince at the same time then your rolling.



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post #5 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-29-08, 05:46 AM
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I'm begining to sound a bit like a broken record but in this case its very valid. GK GM with Pyscannon and MC-NFW. Put him with his mates in a Bodygaurd and you have a unit that is designed for the job of bringing down the DP.
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post #6 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-29-08, 06:15 AM
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To date, I've killed more daemon princes with chainswords than anything else. Usually, it's just a single guy with a chainsword, to boot-- the daemon kills a couple, and then he takes a couple wounds in return from chainswords. Sometimes, he kills enough that there's just one guy left, and that one guy finishes him off. *shrug* I've really never had trouble with daemon princes. Even in the old codex.

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post #7 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-29-08, 08:21 AM
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I play BA/Fleah Tearers, and have been using the Mephiston-Corbulo combintaion which is pretty scary. The problem is timing and getting all the peaces to fall into place. (Side note this has to be one of the most useful character combos for BA IMHO, the only draw back is its pricey)

I would try and soften the DP up with a few MM shots just for insurance and use Mephy's P-Hood to nulify any Psycic powers the beast has. Now for the tricky part, make sure Corbulo is with in 12" of Mephiston at the beginning of his assualt phase, which really isn't that difficult.

If this happens you have a dead DP, take a plasma shot with Mephy for a little more insurance and charge...actually Furious Charge. Thats 7-9 Intiative 7 Strength 6 attacks, I don't care what mark you have thats going to hurt. Considering you're wielding a Force Weapon I think you can kill him with a psychic test since this doesn't constitute Insant Death Under the 4th Ed Rules set. I'm sure Gal can correct me if i'm wrong.

Now if you tank your dice rolls, I'm sorry Mephy is going to feel the pain, but war is risky business, however thats why I try and atleast cause a wound or two before charging.

If I can't get the HQ Combo to work I would use mobile melta to soften him up and if worst comes to worst charge with the DC or VETs wielding a Thammer to knock his INT down a peg or two. Make sure Corbulo is in range of those VETs to give them FC, Str 5 PWs are pretty ugly.

Those are my thoughts with a specific army. Hope this helps you BA players, good luck.

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Last edited by Galahad; 03-29-08 at 01:30 PM. Reason: Red is for mods, please.
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post #8 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-29-08, 08:56 AM
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Heavy stubbers always seem to be the one that kills the daemon prince. Let's say a Leman Russ is firing at a daemon prince. Next turn, it suffers a "Armament Destroyed." Your opponent takes out the battle cannon. next turn, he takes out the lascannon. Then the next 2 turns he takes out the heavy bolters. But, all this time that heavy stubber has been sat at the top going BADADADA at that daemon prince. Odds are that 18 str 4 AP 6 shots are at least going to give that daemon prince a headache.


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post #9 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-29-08, 10:31 AM
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Well take some advice from a user of the big nasty beasts. I personally use the Tzeentch Daemon Prince with Wings Warptime and Wind of Chaos in almost every game I play. This is a little expensive running at 205 points, but I find he pays for himself about 90% of the time. Even though my big fun friend pays for himself I find he dies about 95% of the time. He is always the favored target in my army. (I thought about painting him in a Bullseye pattern.)

Now most of the comments so far have been talking about putting big heavy shots into a Daemon Prince with weapons such as Lascannons and Multi-meltas. Well I have to tell you from experience (at least the Tzeentch experience) that the Daemon Prince will win that encounter every time. Thousand sons are the same way. I always find my opponent firing his most powerful weapons at my Tzeentch troops and Daemon Princes, to which I always sit there thinking to myself that my opponent must either be ignorant of the power of the mighty 4+ invulnerable save, or he is just loony. Think if you play space marines actually how many Lascannons it will statistically take to kill a Daemon Prince (at least a Tzeentch one). Firstly he has a 4+ invulnerable save which means you will statistically have to wound him 8 times for him to die. Now that does not mean you only need 8 Lascannons (and for anyone that plays space marines you know how expensive even 8 Lascannons can be, even missiles which do the same thing are still expensive. I am just using the Lascannon reference because most vehicles can not take missiles but can take Lascannons). Now a Space Marine player knows that you hit on a 3+ which means you hit 2/3 of the time, and a Lascannon wounds on a 2+ which works 5/6 of the time. Now if you do the calculation that means 55.5% of your Lascannon shots will actually cause a wound on a Daemon Prince. Now since the save of a Daemon Prince (Tzeentch) is 50% that takes your 55.5% chance of wounding the Prince down to a mere 27.75%. Thats about a 1 in 4 Lascannnon shots are actually going to take a wound off of him. So statistically if you want a kill, you have to fire 15-16 Lascannon shots into him just to drop the 1 Daemon Prince, and remember this is with the mighty BS of 4 with a strength 9 weapon. If you are a guard player you need even more Lascannons.

Honestly who builds their army with 16 Lascannons? If you say that you do you must love guns or are playing an insane amount of points. All of that firepower is wasted anyway because if you are playing any type of fair game, there is going to be some cover for the Daemon Prince to hide behind, so you will not always get to shoot him. Also all of your firepower going into the Daemon Prince is making it so the rest of the Chaos army is untouched, and even though the Berzerkers got screwed in the new codex compared to how they were, a 10 man squad is still 40 WS5 S5 I5 attacks, that will hurt almost anything they decide to attack.

Now if you really want the key to killing a Daemon Prince there are a few ways. Listed in the order of most effective IMO.

1. Rapid fire weapons. It doesn't matter if it is a plasma-gun or a flashlight, if it can wound the Daemon shoot it at him. Even the mighty Daemon Princes find it hard take 100 strength 3 shots. Even though statistically 100 strength 3 shots fired at BS3 will only cause 8-9 wounds, that still will shave off some of his wounds. Then when he only has 1-2 wounds left thats when you fire the "Big Guns." Also I did the calculation for Bolters from Space Marines and they will knock a wound off 3.7% of the time (and that is actually against the Nurgle T6 Daemon Prince). The percentage is 7.4% against the Tzeentch, Slaanesh, and Khorne Daemon Prince. Which for the Tzeentch/Slaanesh/Khorne Daemon Prince that is 55 Bolter shots to kill him.

2. Resilience. I personally find that my Thousand sons can stand up to all sorts of powerful foes in close combat. The reason is that they have amazing invulnerable saves. So if you really want to throw a Daemon Prince off his game, throw the most durable thing in your army against him (NOT VEHICLES!). Really anything with an invulnerable save will do the trick, as long as your guys will survive a few turns it is a win against the Daemon Prince even if they don't kill him. Also try to have that unit be fearless so they don't get Swept away by the advancing Daemon Prince.

3. Monstrous Creatures. If you have Monstrous Creatures of your own they do wonders against the Daemon Prince. However you must be prepared to lose your guy too. They usually end up killing each other. Oh and if you play Eldar throw a Wraithlord at him. He will need 6's to wound, and that makes it nearly impossible to kill the Wraithlord in 1 or sometimes even 2 turns. Yes this is like #2 but the Monstrous creature has a good chance of killing the Daemon Prince by itself with only a few attacks compared to a full squad of guys.

4. Swarms. Well what can you say about the classic other than you are going to lose a bunch of guys, but eventually you will kill it. Just hope that the other Chaos don't come help out their fearless leader, because then you will just lose a bunch of guys.

5. Balls. Take it like a man and just attack. Hey even though your Fire warriors completely blow in Close Combat it is statistically possible to hurt him. I know from experience that even Eldar Warp Spiders in Close Combat can hurt Daemons. Just ask my Greater Daemon that got killed by 4 Warp Spiders.... in Close Combat!

6. And lastly I will put in, "Just shooting him with all your Big guns," but I do say again, this, in my experience, is the worst way of taking down a Daemon Prince because it is not at all cost effective and you rarely even have the firepower to actually accomplish this anyway before he gets to you, and again if you do have the shots to do this you will probably still have to deal with the rest of the Chaos army which is often nothing to laugh at.

Hope this helps anyone that has to face one of these beasts.

And remember "Statistics are often cruel and unusual, but they are rarely wrong."

I'm watching you.

Last edited by bobinatorect; 03-29-08 at 10:34 AM.
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post #10 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-29-08, 11:30 AM
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If, like me, you play Black Templars, then you have a compulsory pal who's almost purpose-built for the job. Like their forefather Sigismund, the Emperor's Champion is very good at dealing with Daemon Princes. S6 with the BLack Sword means that you wound on 3+ most of the time, 4+ against Nurgle, and they only get their crappy Inv. save. WS is high enough that both get 4+ to hit against each other. Equal initiative means that they strike simultaneously, and if they're using Slaanesh, well, you can take Suffer to wound on 2+. You've also got his 4+ Inv. save, which is usually enough to keep you safe if you've got a friendly unit around you. Because the DP is fearless and so are you, it can only escape by being killed, or somehow beating the EC and his whole unit.
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