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post #51 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-24-08, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Desolatemm View Post
The rule book says that a psycher's powers are used how the codex allows. In the eldar case it says all of the above ^. It does clearly state that all the powers are used as described in the 40k rule book. The 40k Rule book just tells you to refer to the specific army (codex) rules for using psych powers. In the codex: unless otherwise noted, the powers are used at the START of the Eldar turn and do not require line of sight to target. Fortune/Guide/Doom never say they are used in the shooting whereas Mind War and Eldritch Storm clearly say "in the shooting phase". Also, Mind War says that it requires line of sight even though the main rule is that none of the powers need LoS. This is why eldrad cannot jump out of a transport and use Fortune/Guide/Doom, because he just finished his movement when he jumped out, thus NOT the start of the Eldar turn. He may not use the powers when inside the transport because of the transport rule. You may however use your Fortune/Guide/Doom then embark into a transport because you use them before the movement phase. Your right, it does not say that Fortune and Doom can take place durring the assualt, this is because they don't. They take place at the start of the turn (before movement/shooting/assualt). Nothing about the assualt phase prohibits the use of powers that are used at the START of the turn.

The codex Clearly says that , unless otherwise noted, the powers work as described in the Psychic Powers section of the 40k rulebook. It also says they are used at the start of the Eldar turn. OH LOOK, it has just been otherwise noted. Just as Eldritch Storm and Mind War have been otherwise noted to take place in the shooting phase. Ive asked for many people's opinion on this, not saying that its 100%, but it is very clear when looking at both the rulebook and the codex. No one has dissagreed about it where I play. They may not like the Eldar "cheese" but they still do not dissagree.
Ambiguous rules strike again. I went through the rulebook pretty thoroughly when I was first researching Psychic powers to try and see how they worked. One of the things I really wanted to know was whether I could use Psychic powers while locked in close combat.

So during my research I read the Psychic Rules Page 56. The last paragraph of which stated Psy powers are subject to the usual shooting rules. I then read the Eldar codex and through the Farseer powers. The Eldar codex said they followed the normal rules for Psychic powers and were used at the beginning of the turn and didn't need Line of Sight.

Now, by this point I had a few things in mind: While I didn't need Line of Sight and used the powers at the beginning of the turn, every other rule for shooting was followed, and going by the examples they give in the Psychic powers section would mean I still had to direct all my powers at one target, etc. Another thing was melee, what if I'm locked in close combat? So I read about shooting while locked in close combat which led me to page 44 of the rulebook under the heading "Shooting into and out of close combat" Which states that models can't shoot into and out of close combat... I didn't really pay attention to the "..in the shooting phase" part.

I like the idea of being able to use Psychic powers while locked in close combat if I can, the idea of it never made sense to me though. Just because the Assault phase is the last phase of your turn doesn't mean your guys and gals and alien creatures paused in their fighting to wait for everyone else to finish moving and shooting. I just imagined it as always going on and you only worried about what happened while everyone was moving and shooting, in it's own time.

Using the conditional "...in the shooting phase" seems like abusing the intent of the rule by pointing out the technical wording of it. Who doesn't shoot in the Shooting phase? They say that the attacks from pistols and such are taken into account through the results of close combat (Another thing that never made sense to me, especially when my Fusion Pistol is Strength 8 and my Eldar Harlequin is Strength 3 or 4) and that your unit is completely taken up in the swirl of combat.

Anyway, it doesn't quite make sense to me but if you can use Psychic powers while locked in close combat, I guess that's okay. I've always played it as that I couldn't.
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post #52 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-24-08, 10:37 PM
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If it comes down to a situation that would result in a dispute, I would give-up my opinion just because it is a little controversial (and because its really really cheap ). I actually believed the same the first game I used Eldrad. It was my opponent that pointed the rules out to me and explained that I could still use my powers (didn't help me much against the onslaught of guants anyway). Fluff wise, you can justify it because Eldrad is the god psycher of a godly psychic army. I know this is a tactica about how to nul. Eldrad, but can someone else with a little more experience with the rule give us their holy thoughts and opinion about using Fortune/Guide/Doom while locked in assualt?

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post #53 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-24-08, 10:53 PM
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Psychic Powers follow the normal rules of shooting unless otherwise noted. The Eldar codex notes they are used in the begining of the Players turn (unless otherwise stated) and do not require line of sight.

The normal shooting rules do not allow anyone to shoot into or out of close combat while engaged, as they are too busy fighting for their lives.

It seems fairly clear to me, Eldrad's power obey the rules for shooting, that state you cannot shoot while locked in combat. However, this breaks a great deal of other psychic powers according to RAW. (Gift of Chaos comes to mind) Not to mention the applications toward Force Weapons; while not neccessarily a power in itself, the test required uses your power for the turn.

Might I suggest creating this thread in the rules forum for discussion? No need to hijack this one.

Pondering...
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post #54 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-24-08, 10:57 PM
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Will do , thanks for the help!

Moved the power rules discussion to:
https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...4436#post84436

"Bide your time and hold out hope"
-The Count of Monte Cristo

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post #55 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-25-08, 02:07 AM
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Outside of Eldrad's Powers his 3+ invulnerable save is one of his saving graces. I think only the Dark Eldar get a better invulnerable save? and it's lost if they ever fail it right? Anyone better?
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post #56 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-25-08, 02:59 AM
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Well, Eldrad has a very good same all the time which is nice, and his T4 makes it harder for him to be insta deathed. On the other hand, a Biker or Jet Biker can get the same save if they turbo boost. The sisters can make an entire squad of 3+ invulnerable with faith points... I can't think of a whole lot that get better...

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post #57 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-25-08, 03:04 AM Thread Starter
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There's the debate of turbo-boosting tzeentch bikers having a 2+ invul, but that's a matter for another thread. A Space Marine character with artificer armor and a bike can have a 2+ invul if he boosts...but not something that's on all the time.

Generally 4+ is the gold standard for constant invul saves. Doesn't usually get any better than that, especially with Fortune. It certainly makes Eldrad a bitch to kill, weedy little space elf or not.

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post #58 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-25-08, 03:07 AM
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I suppose his 3 wounds, Ghosthelm and T4 are nice against the occasional Perils of the Warp too. Since unlike most of his Farseer brethren he doesn't insta die to Perils if his Ghosthelm cracks
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post #59 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-25-08, 03:26 AM
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I will repeat what I said earlier. Pull out and nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure. Give the whiny little space elf his dolly back. Big baby.

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*sigh* I have to point out that despite what you see in games, lasrifles win wars. Just because lasrifles suck at killing superhuman killing machines in power armor does not mean that they are bad weapons. You are shooting them at the wrong targets. The most common enemy the Imperium faces is lightly armored humans armed with lasguns or autoguns, NOT SPACE MARINES.
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post #60 of 67 (permalink) Old 03-25-08, 03:39 AM
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Pull out and nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
I can see it now...
They came out of nowhere... Khaine and his followers slaughter an entire army of Guardsmen. It was as if they had the divination of the gods to strike with such surgical precision. Their commander escapes to nuke the planet out of harms way. Mostly out of fear because he knows not that it will even be effective. Mean while back on the planet, Eldrad looks into the sky without pity or remorse for what was to come. Brilliant explosions filled the atmosphere and all was quiet. The commander returned to the surface of the planet a few weeks later. Upon the spot where the great mascre took place, there stood a single staff. It was the Fearsome weapon of the great farseer Eldrad, the staff of Ulthamar. The commander reached out to claim it, when he tripped on a ghosthelm and fell onto the staff piercing through his thick armour. The last words uttered by the commander were "...Damn......Divination...."

Sorry, Bored...

"Bide your time and hold out hope"
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Last edited by Desolatemm; 03-25-08 at 03:44 AM.
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