Adrenal or Toxin Stealers? Heresy's Combat Caclulators first mass (ab)use! - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
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post #1 of 10 (permalink) Old 05-03-10, 01:08 AM Thread Starter
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Default Adrenal or Toxin Stealers? Heresy's Combat Caclulators first mass (ab)use!

So some of you may know, there have been several discussions over whether its benificial to take Adrenal Glands or Toxin Sacs on your Genestealers (and that I'm a fan of Toxin Sacs, but whatever )

Okay, so I thought I'd take this chance to show you all what the brand new Heresy Combat Calculator can do. Basically I'm going to compare Genestealers with Adrenal Gland to those with Toxin Sacs against a variety of defenders. FOr this, I will be pitting them against AV10/11/12/13/14 and GEQ, ORK, MEQ, TEQ, and T6/3+ (TMC). This would have taken ages by hand/standard calculator, especially for the Rending vs. Vehicles section, but Heresy's Combat Calculator has made it soooo much easier.

Now this is fairly data heavy, so skip to the bottom if you just want to see the conclusions that I drew from the data.

Against AV10
Quote:
Toxin Genestealers vs AV10

Attackers

Toxin Genestealers
Attacks: 3
Hit Chance: 100%
Hits: 3
Glancing Chance: 0%
Penetration Chance: 16.67%
Options: Rending

-----------------------------

Defenders

AV10
Hits: 3
Penetration Hits: 0.5

Results
Shaken: 0.083
Stunned: 0.083
Weapon Destroyed: 0.083
Immobilized: 0.083
Wrecked: 0.083
Explodes: 0.083

-----------------------------
Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

Quote:
Adrenal Genestealers vs AV10

Attackers

Adrenal Genestealers
Attacks: 3
Hit Chance: 100%
Hits: 3
Glancing Chance: 16.67%
Penetration Chance: 16.67%
Options: Rending

-----------------------------

Defenders

AV10
Hits: 3
Glancing Hits: 0.5
Penetration Hits: 0.5

Results
Shaken: 0.333
Stunned: 0.167
Weapon Destroyed: 0.167
Immobilized: 0.167
Wrecked: 0.083
Explodes: 0.083

-----------------------------
Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)
From these two, we can see that the only advantage the Adrenal Glands gain is doubling the chance of stunning/immobilizing/weapon destroying a vehicle, whilst quadrupling the chance of shaking it. They both have the same chance to destroy the vehicle, unless the Adrenal Genestealers causes enough extra Imobilised/Weapon Destroyed results.

Now what advantages do Adrenal Glands give for Armour Values over 10?

Against AV11

Quote:
Adrenal Genestealers vs AV11

Attackers

Adrenal Genestealers
Attacks: 3
Hit Chance: 100%
Hits: 3
Glancing Chance: 0%
Penetration Chance: 16.67%
Options: Rending

-----------------------------

Defenders

AV11
Hits: 3
Penetration Hits: 0.5

Results
Shaken: 0.083
Stunned: 0.083
Weapon Destroyed: 0.083
Immobilized: 0.083
Wrecked: 0.083
Explodes: 0.083

-----------------------------
Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)
Quote:
Toxin Stealers vs AV11

Attackers

Toxin Stealers
Attacks: 3
Hit Chance: 100%
Hits: 3
Glancing Chance: 5.56%
Penetration Chance: 11.11%
Options: Rending

-----------------------------

Defenders

AV11
Hits: 3
Glancing Hits: 0.167
Penetration Hits: 0.333
Results
Shaken: 0.139
Stunned: 0.083
Weapon Destroyed: 0.083
Immobilized: 0.083
Wrecked: 0.056
Explodes: 0.056

-----------------------------
Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)
At AV11, the benefits of Adrenal Glands is just to increase the chance of destroying the vehicle. Now this is indeed the first true advantage of Adrenal Glands over Toxin Sacs.

Against AV12

Quote:
Adrenal Genestealers vs AV12

Attackers

Adrenal Genestealers
Attacks: 3
Hit Chance: 100%
Hits: 3
Glancing Chance: 5.56%
Penetration Chance: 11.11%
Options: Rending

-----------------------------

Defenders

AV12
Hits: 3
Glancing Hits: 0.167
Penetration Hits: 0.333

Results
Shaken: 0.139
Stunned: 0.083
Weapon Destroyed: 0.083
Immobilized: 0.083
Wrecked: 0.056
Explodes: 0.056

-----------------------------
Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)
Quote:
Toxin Stealers vs AV12

Attackers

Toxin Stealers
Attacks: 3
Hit Chance: 100%
Hits: 3
Glancing Chance: 5.56%
Penetration Chance: 5.56%
Options: Rending

-----------------------------

Defenders

AV12
Hits: 3
Glancing Hits: 0.167
Penetration Hits: 0.167
Results
Shaken: 0.111
Stunned: 0.056
Weapon Destroyed: 0.056
Immobilized: 0.056
Wrecked: 0.028
Explodes: 0.028

-----------------------------
Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)
Again, the the benefits of Adrenal Gland are apparent here, although the with the decreased chance of either pulling it off make this less significant than vs. AV11. Still noteworthy however.

Against AV13

Quote:
Adrenal Genestealers vs AV13

Attackers

Adrenal Genestealers
Attacks: 3
Hit Chance: 100%
Hits: 3
Glancing Chance: 5.56%
Penetration Chance: 5.56%
Options: Rending

-----------------------------

Defenders

AV13
Hits: 3
Glancing Hits: 0.167
Penetration Hits: 0.167

Results
Shaken: 0.111
Stunned: 0.056
Weapon Destroyed: 0.056
Immobilized: 0.056
Wrecked: 0.028
Explodes: 0.028

-----------------------------
Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)
Quote:
Toxin Stealers vs AV13

Attackers

Toxin Stealers
Attacks: 3
Hit Chance: 100%
Hits: 3
Glancing Chance: 5.56%
Penetration Chance: 0%
Options: Rending

-----------------------------

Defenders

AV13
Hits: 3
Glancing Hits: 0.167
Results
Shaken: 0.083
Stunned: 0.028
Weapon Destroyed: 0.028
Immobilized: 0.028

-----------------------------
Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)
So Toxin Genestealers suddenly can't penetrate while Adrenal Stealers can. This is a big boost, but AV13 in combat is rare, pretty much restricted to walkers. Walkers are bad news for Genestealers because they can look you in and take away the Adrenal Gland bonus.

Against AV14

Quote:
Adrenal Genestealers vs AV14

Attackers

Adrenal Genestealers
Attacks: 3
Hit Chance: 100%
Hits: 3
Glancing Chance: 5.56%
Penetration Chance: 0%
Options: Rending

-----------------------------

Defenders

AV14
Hits: 3
Glancing Hits: 0.167

Results
Shaken: 0.083
Stunned: 0.028
Weapon Destroyed: 0.028
Immobilized: 0.028

-----------------------------
Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)
Finally, against AV14, while Adrenal Stealers can only glance, Toxin Stealers can't do anything. That being said, the chance of an Adrenal Stealer doing damage is slim and even then it can't destroy the vehicle without getting many immobilized/weapon destroyed results.

Against GEQ
Quote:
Toxin Stealer vs GEQ

Attackers

Toxin Stealer
Attacks: 3
Hit Chance: 66.67%
Hits: 2
Wound Chance: 50%
Rend Wound Chance: 25%
Models Killed: 1.167
Options: Reroll Wound, Rending, Poison

-----------------------------

Defenders

GEQ
Hits: 2
Wounds: 1
Rending Wounds: 0.5
Saves: 0.333
Wounds Lost: 0.667
R. Wounds Lost: 0.5
Models Lost: 1.167 / 3 (38.9%)
Kills in I order:
I:6 1.167

-----------------------------
Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

Quote:
Adrenal Stealer vs GEQ

Attackers

Adrenal Stealer
Attacks: 3
Hit Chance: 66.67%
Hits: 2
Wound Chance: 66.67%
Rend Wound Chance: 16.67%
Models Killed: 1.222
Options: Rending

-----------------------------

Defenders

GEQ
Hits: 2
Wounds: 1.333
Rending Wounds: 0.333
Saves: 0.444
Wounds Lost: 0.889
R. Wounds Lost: 0.333
Models Lost: 1.222 / 3 (40.7%)
Kills in I order:
I:6 1.222

-----------------------------
Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)
Adrenal Glands take the victory against Guardsmen. However, you must remember that a decent size brood of Stealers will wipe out a unit of Guardsmen in a single turn anyway (Toxin will average one left from an 8-man unit, which will force a snake-eyes test or suffer a sweep against I6...not good chances at all). It's interesting to note that Toxin Stealers get more rends, which would help even it out a little over Fire Warriors, but against Fire Warriors your even more likely to sweep the unit with either. However, against Sisters of Battle, Toxin will most likely be the better choice, but the sweeping factor isn't as big, because of the Book of St. Lucius which nullifies negative Ld modifiers.

Against MEQ
Quote:
Toxin Stealer vs MEQ

Attackers

Toxin Stealer
Attacks: 3
Hit Chance: 66.67%
Hits: 2
Wound Chance: 50%
Rend Wound Chance: 25%
Models Killed: 0.833
Options: Reroll Wound, Rending, Poison

-----------------------------

Defenders

MEQ
Hits: 2
Wounds: 1
Rending Wounds: 0.5
Saves: 0.667
Wounds Lost: 0.333
R. Wounds Lost: 0.5
Models Lost: 0.833 / 3 (27.8%)
Kills in I order:
I:6 0.833

-----------------------------
Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)


Quote:
Adrenal Stealer vs MEQ

Attackers

Adrenal Stealer
Attacks: 3
Hit Chance: 66.67%
Hits: 2
Wound Chance: 50%
Rend Wound Chance: 16.67%
Models Killed: 0.667
Options: Rending

-----------------------------

Defenders

MEQ
Hits: 2
Wounds: 1
Rending Wounds: 0.333
Saves: 0.667
Wounds Lost: 0.333
R. Wounds Lost: 0.333
Models Lost: 0.667 / 3 (22.2%)
Kills in I order:
I:6 0.667

-----------------------------
Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)
Toxin Stealers are better off vs. MEQ. MEQ applies to many armies, such as Necroms, SM, SW, BA, BT, DA and CSM, so being able to kill MEQs better is pretty significant. Also, with more rends causes, it will cause more WBB ineligibility than Adrenal Stealers (though Res. Orbs nullify this) and also help vs. Plague Marines (more rends = less FNP).

Against ORKs

Quote:
Toxin Stealer vs ORK

Attackers

Toxin Stealer
Attacks: 3
Hit Chance: 66.67%
Hits: 2
Wound Chance: 50%
Rend Wound Chance: 25%
Models Killed: 1.333
Options: Reroll Wound, Rending, Poison

-----------------------------

Defenders

ORK
Hits: 2
Wounds: 1
Rending Wounds: 0.5
Saves: 0.167
Wounds Lost: 0.833
R. Wounds Lost: 0.5
Models Lost: 1.333 / 3 (44.4%)
Kills in I order:
I:6 1.333

-----------------------------
Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)
Quote:
Adrenal Stealer vs ORK

Attackers

Adrenal Stealer
Attacks: 3
Hit Chance: 66.67%
Hits: 2
Wound Chance: 50%
Rend Wound Chance: 16.67%
Models Killed: 1.167
Options: Rending

-----------------------------

Defenders

ORK
Hits: 2
Wounds: 1
Rending Wounds: 0.333
Saves: 0.167
Wounds Lost: 0.833
R. Wounds Lost: 0.333
Models Lost: 1.167 / 3 (38.9%)
Kills in I order:
I:6 1.167

-----------------------------
Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)
Against Orks, Toxin Stealers win again. Another advantage here is that Ork mobs are likely going to stay around for more than one combat, after the first round of which Adrenal Stealers become even worse off.

Against TEQ
Quote:
Toxin Stealer vs TEQ

Attackers

Toxin Stealer
Attacks: 3
Hit Chance: 66.67%
Hits: 2
Wound Chance: 50%
Rend Wound Chance: 25%
Models Killed: 0.667
Options: Reroll Wound, Rending, Poison

-----------------------------

Defenders

TEQ
Hits: 2
Wounds: 1
Rending Wounds: 0.5
Saves: 0.833
Wounds Lost: 0.167
R. Wounds Lost: 0.5
Models Lost: 0.667 / 3 (22.2%)
Kills in I order:
I:6 0.667

-----------------------------
Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)
Quote:
Adrenal Stealer vs TEQ

Attackers

Adrenal Stealer
Attacks: 3
Hit Chance: 66.67%
Hits: 2
Wound Chance: 50%
Rend Wound Chance: 16.67%
Models Killed: 0.5
Options: Rending

-----------------------------

Defenders

TEQ
Hits: 2
Wounds: 1
Rending Wounds: 0.333
Saves: 0.833
Wounds Lost: 0.167
R. Wounds Lost: 0.333
Models Lost: 0.5 / 3 (16.7%)
Kills in I order:
I:6 0.5

-----------------------------
Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)
Slight advantage to Toxin Stealers here, though against Hammernators, the difference is reduced, but still in favour of the Toxin Stealers

Against TMC

Quote:
Toxin Stealer vs TMC


Attackers

Toxin Stealer
Attacks: 3
Hit Chance: 66.67%
Hits: 2
Wound Chance: 33.33%
Rend Wound Chance: 16.67%
Models Killed: 0.556
Options: Rending, Poison

-----------------------------

Defenders

TMC
Hits: 2
Wounds: 0.667
Rending Wounds: 0.333
Saves: 0.444
Wounds Lost: 0.222
R. Wounds Lost: 0.333
Models Lost: 0.556 / 3 (18.5%)
Kills in I order:
I:6 0.556

-----------------------------
Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)
Quote:
Adrenal Stealer vs TMC

Attackers

Adrenal Stealer
Attacks: 3
Hit Chance: 66.67%
Hits: 2
Wound Chance: 16.67%
Rend Wound Chance: 16.67%
Models Killed: 0.444
Options: Rending

-----------------------------

Defenders

TMC
Hits: 2
Wounds: 0.333
Rending Wounds: 0.333
Saves: 0.222
Wounds Lost: 0.111
R. Wounds Lost: 0.333
Models Lost: 0.444 / 3 (14.8%)
Kills in I order:
I:6 0.444

-----------------------------
Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)
And once again, Toxin Stealers take it out. Toxin Sacs lead will just get bigger from this point, as Adrenal wounds worse and worse while Toxin stays the same.


Conclusions

The calculations from Heresy's Combat Calculator have shown the following pros of each type:

Adrenal
*Glances against AV11 and 14 (No added chance to destroy)
*Penetration against AV13 (Most likely vs. Walkers, which is a bad situation for Stealers)
*Extra Penetration against AV11/12 (AV12 is most likely walkers, AV11 is the biggest advantage in terms of vehicles)
*More wounds against low save T3 units.

Toxin Sacs
*More rends vs. T3 and T4 (Only meaningful vs. high armour saves)
*More wounds against all models T>=4
*More unsaved wounds vs. all Infantry except low save T3
*Re-rolls grant added benefit of recovering stuff ups
*Can wound T9/10 (Pointless )


All in all I prefer Toxin Stealers, mainly due to the minimal anti-tank benefits of Adrenal Glands compared to the loses vs. Infantry, but also because you shouldn't really have a need to charge a tank with a Stealer Brood anyway, and if you do, most vehicles are AV10. Oh, and the fact I'd never charge a walker with Stealers. Too risky.

Hopefully this inspires you to use Heresy's Combat Calculator! (Even if it isn't to the extent I've used here, which I think partly proves my insanity )
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post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old 05-03-10, 10:47 AM
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Kudos for a great example of the usefulness of the Combat Calculator Skroll!

I was thinking about starting to have a look at it sometime. I think that "sometime" will be a lot sooner now

Regarding the conclusion: Im not surprised at all, the fact that Stealers have Rending makes Poison so much more potent. On top of that it also helps out with the goofy rolls (read 80% 1,2,3s on the to wound rolls) which makes it an even bigger winner in my book

Win/Draw/Loss(5th ed results)
EC: 45/2/12
Tau: 28/3/7
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitsandkits View Post
Common sense and wargamers are like oil and water
Quote:
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post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old 05-03-10, 11:03 AM Thread Starter
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That was the main idea of this, to show the shear power of the Combat Calculator.

I was of the opinion that Toxin Sacs are better, mainly for the reasons you said, but also because they shouldn't have to charge vehicles.

Thanks for letting me know that I helped at leats one person ;)
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post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old 05-03-10, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf_Lord_Skoll View Post
That was the main idea of this, to show the shear power of the Combat Calculator.

It make wool too!!? I bet the welsh and scottish wargamers will want to get a load of it then...

But seriously, thanks for the writeup. I would have thought it'd be an even bigger difference vs infantry in favour of the toxic denim salesmen (salespeople?).

Last edited by Platton725; 05-03-10 at 11:36 AM.
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post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old 05-04-10, 09:44 AM
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Toxic Stealers also tear up Monstrous Creatures very well. They're not quite as pimp as toxic guants but they're getting there.

Toxicguants hate Keeper Of Secrets


Quote:
Assaulting

Toxicguants vs Keeper of Secrets

Calculations by Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

-----------------------------

Attackers

Toxicguants
Attacks: 60
Hit Chance: 33.33%
Hits: 20
Wound Chance: 50%
Wounds: 10
Saved Wounds: 5
Unsaved Wounds: 5
Models Killed: 1.25
Options: Poison

-----------------------------

Defenders

Keeper of Secrets
Hits: 20
Wounds: 10
Saves: 5
Wounds Lost: 5
Models Lost: 1.25 / 1 (125%)
Kills in I order:
I:- 1.25

-----------------------------
Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

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post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old 05-04-10, 10:53 AM
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Woot! Mathhammer! That is hilarious. Good job.
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post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old 05-04-10, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aramoro View Post
Toxic Stealers also tear up Monstrous Creatures very well. They're not quite as pimp as toxic guants but they're getting there.

Toxicguants hate Keeper Of Secrets
They might do, but the numbers aint correct at all.

Keepers have defensive grenades thus you only have 40 attacks instead of 60, if we pretend that 20 remains after the KoS has made its attacks at them which is highly unlikely


Quote:
Assaulting

Keeper of Secrets vs Toxic Hormagaunts

Calculations by Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

-----------------------------

Attackers

Keeper of Secrets
Attacks: 6
Hit Chance: 66.67%
Hits: 4
Wound Chance: 83.33%
Wounds: 3.333
Unsaved Wounds: 3.333
Models Killed: 3.333
Options: Ignore Armour, Instakill

-----------------------------

Defenders

Toxic Hormagaunts
Hits: 4
Wounds: 3.333
Wounds Lost: 3.333
Models Lost: 3.333 / 20 (16.7%)
Kills in I order:
I:10 3.333

-----------------------------
Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

Quote:
Assaulting

Toxic Hormagaunts vs Keeper of Secrets

Calculations by Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

-----------------------------

Attackers

Toxic Hormagaunts
Attacks: 34
Hit Chance: 33.33%
Hits: 11.333
Wound Chance: 50%
Wounds: 5.667
Saved Wounds: 2.833
Unsaved Wounds: 2.833
Models Killed: 0.708
Options: Poison

-----------------------------

Defenders

Keeper of Secrets
Hits: 11.333
Wounds: 5.667
Saves: 2.833
Wounds Lost: 2.833
Models Lost: 0.708 / 1 (70.8%)
Kills in I order:
I:5 0.708

-----------------------------
Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

The numbers still aint correct, but they are a whole world more accurate at least...
*edit: there is no way of letting the Hormagaunts reroll their 1's to hit, something that would be very good and handy in the program, since its actually quite common amongst the new Tyranids to do that*

Should I leave Feedback on the Combat Simulator here, or in another thread btw?(see feedback above in the edit part)

Oh, and once again thanks to WLS for making this thread, this damn sure has potential

Win/Draw/Loss(5th ed results)
EC: 45/2/12
Tau: 28/3/7
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitsandkits View Post
Common sense and wargamers are like oil and water
Quote:
'Alessio is to 40k what impotence is to rape.' - Jezlad

Last edited by MaidenManiac; 05-04-10 at 12:59 PM. Reason: read the *edit* part
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post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old 05-04-10, 11:47 AM
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The numbers are reasonably accurate. My KoS detonates on contact with Toxicgaunts all the time, but you are right I did forget my defensive grenades. And I didn't factor in the KoS striking as it makes no difference in general. The numbers look pretty much right, 33% hit, 50% wounds, 50% save, that's right. He loses 3 wounds and 4 Guants die, another one dies to being Fearless. Same happens next round he kills 4, the remaining Guants do 2 wounds or so, Dead KoS.

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post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old 05-04-10, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aramoro View Post
The numbers are reasonably accurate. My KoS detonates on contact with Toxicgaunts all the time, but you are right I did forget my defensive grenades....
Keepers should have Soporific Musk to help out with stuff like that, but yea, it will be DEEP in the doodoo for sure.

What I ment of inaccurate numbers is that there is no way of making the Hormagaunts reroll 1's in the calculator, suppose I should have written that out propperly (my fail, edit time), thus the question for where one should leave feedback.
Rerolling 1's on some 34 attacks will make for a bunch of dice and thus another few hits. Would be nice to have a "reroll 1's feature" in the program too, since thats actually fairly common amongst the Tyranids

Win/Draw/Loss(5th ed results)
EC: 45/2/12
Tau: 28/3/7
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitsandkits View Post
Common sense and wargamers are like oil and water
Quote:
'Alessio is to 40k what impotence is to rape.' - Jezlad
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post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old 05-05-10, 09:48 AM Thread Starter
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I have already put it foward to the creator
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