Originally Posted by purepolarpanzer
I have yet to see any close combat unit beat even my shoota boyz. Your talking about a 30 person unit, ws 4 t 4. You need to kill 19 just to give the possibility of them running, and meanwhile your catching between 50 and 80 attacks per round.
I'll make this my final post on the topic since I don't want to belabour a point, but how on earth are you getting 50-80 attacks per round from shoota boys?
They have 2 attacks each. With a shoota they don't get a bonus for 2CCWs. So that's a maximum
of 60 attacks (+2 for the nob if you bought one).
And that's at a full squad. If you get 2 flamer templates on the boys, that's at least 10 Boys down - not including any other shooting.
So 20 boys, 40 attacks - if
they're all engaged. However, at I2 anything that charges them is going to clear out at least
6 boys on the charge (serious CC units often kill more than that).
So that's 14 Boys - at the most - left in the unit.
How many of those will still be engaged after you've removed the casualties? Even if the mob started all in b-t-b (bad idea with template weapons on the board), they'll have been thinned out by flamer+CC casualty removal
Say you've still got 5 boys engaged? 8 even maybe? That's a far, far cry from 50-80 attacks "per round". And S3, I2 attacks at that.
Granted, the counter-charge can be nasty. But if you're running multiple units of 30xboys, at least 2 of those squads are going to be hit in such a fashion - and given the amount of space massive mobs take up, you'll be quite lucky to get other mobs of 30 across the board to enter the CC (esp with difficult terrain in play etc).
It's all pure theoryhammer of course, in the real world everything depends on the battle itself, unit positioning, terrain, and so on - but proper CC units have nothing to fear from shooter mobs in CC since they can clear 1/2 the boys out of the killzone due to I2.
Some ork squads are very deadly on the charge (Stormboys can get all their numbers in along with their Nob or special character, Kommados are vicious given they get numbers+Nob+can still have a pair of power weapons, Nobs are insanely good on the charge). Shoota boys are far from deadly when recieving one ;).
As for transports making it across the board to orks, so far I've had Rhinos, Chimera, Raiders (coming out of WWP), and of course Grav tanks all make it safely across the board so far - so that's pretty much every transport in use in the game ;). Playing both with and against Orks I see a lot of things hapenning that made me give up on 30-strong shoota mobs as anything other than ground-pounder objective holders and close-range fire support
As for flamers getting delivered by squads - Marine assault squads (pretty sure Raptors can still carry flamers too), SoB Seraphim (nastiest flamer squad in the game since they carry 2 and they can re-roll wounds), Kommandos, anything in a transport (some squads can deliver flamer+Heavy Flamer), anything that drops/deepstrikes in (although I wouldn't risk DS anywhere near Orks personally), then vehicles such as Hellhounds (24" range on that flamer and you can place the template anywhere within that range), Skorchas, plenty of units can deliver flamers in all honesty mate ;).