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post #1 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-27-09, 06:32 PM Thread Starter
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Default Helping the tacticaless

For two years my brother has played 40k and has failed at every attempt to defeat me (I'm tau, hes eldar).(with a small budget) I've tried writing him lists, using his lists against mine, telling him what sort of things he needs to do to defeat me.

Yet he is still stuck in the mud. He gets fustrated with losing all the time (I can understand that) and now I'm at a loss at how to teach him how to construct an army and synergise it.

I was hoping if anyone could lend a hand with any tips on how I can teach him or how he can teach himself to become a better 40k player.

Thanks for your time.

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post #2 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-27-09, 07:40 PM
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Do you guys ever swap armies?
How large of games are we talking about?
Have you ever just done something stupid so that he could capitalize on it, on purpose?

I have a similar situation, A friend and I have been playing for years, the best he has ever done is pulled a draw against me. I've offered suggestions and even tried to help him with his list. However my friend tends to "give up" when the first "bad thing" happens (for example if round 1's shooting phase fails to kill anything of mine) at that point the game is essentially mine as he will "throw the game"

Is this the type of thing happening, self-fulfilling doom?

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post #3 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-27-09, 08:32 PM
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I think that part is poor sportsmanship on their end (really, i got it HANDED to me after not playing since 2nd before I learned the new game).

Part too is the format, 5 rds is not alot of time to unload, deploy and attack, much less counter, reassess and attack again. i say 10 turns should be a good amount of time to run a game. But this is a 4x8 table min. and figs come out at tokens before they are spotted (so you don't have folks countering things their troop doesn't even see).

Run you games as night games and extend the #turns and make it to the death, not objective based and you may find a new avenue of play you may like.
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post #4 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-27-09, 08:51 PM
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i have the same problem with two people that i got into warhammer... perhaps he doesnt love the game the same way that you do. i know it may be hard to believe, and you may not want to believe it at all, i may be wrong but i could be that he doesnt enjoy the game as much as you do.
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post #5 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-28-09, 07:55 AM Thread Starter
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Trying night fighting may help, I've swapped armies with him before, even beating him with a list I just beat.

Maybe going throught the game slower, we tend to do a lot of "kill the oppenent" so maybe more objective games would be better for him.

Anyway thank you very much for the feedback, and I'm always happy to hear some more helpful answers.

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post #6 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-28-09, 11:27 AM
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Well myself when I try to teach someone the game its not about winning or loosing its a learning experience for the person.

The best way to do this is to almost treat it like an RPG game and try to get them to think about whats going on EG: you set up 1st and then get him to set up after when hes done ask what his thinking was on his deployment and correct anything that may optimize his chances when the game starts and explain why it would be a better option, I've noticed many vet players will take over and not explain their line of thinking and then the person they are trying to help learns nothing.

Continue going step by step for each phaze of the game you can even go as far as to explain what your up to just to get him to think about what he will do to counteract your plans then let him play it out even if it doesn't work out you can point it out later and give ideas of how you would have played it.

Anyways my 2 bits hope it helps.

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post #7 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-28-09, 12:34 PM
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I have a similar problem. i unsually lose games (with the occasional draw). My problem tends to be in my initial deployment. I refer to myself as "tactically retarded". I always tend to leave some random unit in the open, or forget that i have the first turn and deploy units in heavy cover...or other such problems.

Does your friend have a similar problem? If he knwo what army you will be fieldign maybe he coudl try makign himself "deployment maps" to help hm get setup properly.

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post #8 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-28-09, 09:53 PM
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I don't have the same problem as such but I find that if you have a younger brother or sister (I have a younger sis) is that they have a small attention span, he might just switch off after a while, maybe it's a case of keeping him interested? And I agree, it would be good to talk 'em through the game a tell them helpful stuff, and saying stuff like "oh no I just noticed that I put my men just in front of your assault troops" and sometimes just giving them the occasional opitunity to just get stuck in and actually kill something and win it.

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post #9 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-29-09, 06:00 AM
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Perhaps he/she is not suited to the Eldar army. They are a finicky race which needs to capitalize on the enemies weakness while showing little of their own. Hence, very few mistakes can be made while playing eldar - definitely not a learning race imho.

Races I would recommend that allow you a bit of breathing room.

Chaos Space Marines
Space Marines

(Wierd that they are all new codex's)

Other than that, some people are just not inclined to play strategy games (no offense) but at some point you gotta ask, is this really for me?

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post #10 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-29-09, 01:10 PM
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I think a key thing is that not everyone is into the games. My brother quit all this kind of stuff a few years ago, even though he was actually fairly good at it, just because it wasn't his thing. Fair enough.

If people do want to learn how play well then there's probably no quick fix and some effort required. The key thing is teaching them to think the way that you do. The problem is it's quite difficult to analyse what it is about the way you play that works, and what they do that doesn't.

When you play, you are probably thinking several moves ahead, looking at threatening enemy units, objectives, various dice rolls you are going to make that will go one way or another. It's a lot of information to process. I can sometimes see exactly how a game is going to play out right from the start, especially against a less good player. Often, I plan how I want the board to look at the end of the game and work backwards from there to how I should deploy. I might then form a plan that leaves me with several potential routes to winning, or where I can force a draw with chances for me to win, or whatever. Point is, I'm looking at everything that will happen, or might happen.

A beginner might just look at one or two units at a time, thinking only about what they should do that turn, or maybe looking at some scary enemy unit. Somebody doing that is just never going to beat me, because every move they make will be completely obvious. I literally know what they are going to do before they do.

Most people are probably somewhere between the two examples. They do plan ahead but they aren't completely familiar with all the opposing units and they therefore can't be sure what their opponent is planning. I don't really know how you change the way you play, for me it was a lot of practice and reading some books about strategy. I was playing for about 8 or 9 years, since first edition, before I became really good, or found out that I was good, when I started going to tournaments at the beginning of 3rd edition.

That does give me one idea, which is that you should see if it's possible to play against some other people. It would be good practice for both of you to enter a tournament, or just join a gaming group if there is one in your area.

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