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post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-25-09, 06:03 AM Thread Starter
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Help with heavy support

I'm putting together a crimson fist marine army and am having trouble deciding what to get for heavy support? The vindicators look great as well as at least one land raider. What are people suggestions concerning devastator squads? I have six terminators w/fist and the black reach dred.

I was also wondering if there was any use in assault marines assembled and modeled without jump packs? I have noticed that you can drop the jump packs for a free rhino. Any beta?

Until the Loki sector is free or we become extinct on Rynn...the Crimson Fists fight on in his grace's name.

Some links to ongoing painting logs covering space marines, orks, vampire counts and new small Warmachine Cryx project. Not to mention some pics of previously owned High Elves:

https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...ad.php?t=45147
https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...ad.php?t=55017
https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...526#post781526
https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...ad.php?t=85253
https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...413#post469413

Last edited by sphere830; 08-25-09 at 06:05 AM.
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post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-25-09, 06:14 AM
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I play CSM, so this is mostly going to be advice from the receiving end.

Devastators can be excellent, getting those AP2 blast templates out from a small, easily hidden unit. The problem here is, you are paying a lot for a unit that goes down as easily as the rest of your marines. Also, fluffwise, I think that the Crimson Fists had their devastators torn to shreds and make use mostly of heavy bolters.

Vindicators are an excellent addition to any CSM or SM list, They are tough to crack and can put a whole lot of pain on anyone, esp. horde armies. If they fit with the theme of your army, I'd definitely advocate getting at least one.

Whirlwinds get a good wrap, but I've never fought them.

Predators can be good tank hunters or good heavy infantry hunters, I've used them extensively against greenskins.

An advantage of taking vehicles over devastators is that it will force your opponent to really consider what to do with heavy weapons units and powerfists, and this could give you an opening for a surgical strike with those terminators.

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post #3 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-25-09, 03:26 PM
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One of the fundamental aspects to realize when choosing a heavy support option is to understand how the rest of your army plays. If you are going to spread your army out I would recommend at least two of any heavy support you take. If you aregoing to push at an enemy, I like to have at least one high AV tank as a "Column Head."

Some general advice about the units:

Devastators - are OK, but not game breaking. I field them but I think that you'll find other options to be alot more bang for your buck.

Vindicators - Are great. Field at least two. With one you feel cheated after two turn cause it will get dropped. They can act as a column head or create a no mans land, keeping the enemy in their backfield waiting till they are destroyed. I have a friend who fields three, which basically means he owns the middle of the board. And at less than 400 points it is a rock that the rest of your force can anchor behind.

Land Raiders - Great in assault, overpriced if you standing back. I only use them with armies that can toe to toe with almost any other assaulting army. remember you are paying for a transport, a high armor value, and a firing platform. You need to use all three.

Predators - Very versatile but in my opinion don't pack much punch. I like the lascannons as a mobile fire platform but with the cover rules, one 4+ roll a turn and your opponent pretty much negates your predator. The autocanons are nice at taking out transports. I just feel kinda meh about them.

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post #4 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-25-09, 04:07 PM
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The vindi is a great tank, it packs a hell of a lot of punch but is also the best bullet magnate in teh galaxy- I play 1 but use it mostly to threaten the enemy and to draw fire from less obvious but more game winning vehicles (like rhinos). Many people play with 3 but doing so really starts to change their army- they have troops supporting vindis rather then vindis supporting troops.
Personally I would say 1 is good, 2 is great but 3 is pushing it.

Devys are fun, having them with 4ML or 4HB is a nice, cheap unit that packs a punch. As soon as you start loading them up with plasma cannons or lascannons they start being targetted more by the enemy. They arent really worth taking but can be fun to throw in.

LRs are fine but I would advise you take one because you needed it.. rather then because you want to use one- they need to be transporting something to be worth it (personally I think that LRC and LRR are vastly superior to the normal one just because both tank and passengers want to get close).

Predators are fine for a little cheap fire support, but I wouldnt field one with more then just the heavy bolter/autocannon set up (mebbe the TLLC if Im really really in need of anti-tank). I used to have an anhiliator (all lascannons) but stopped using it in 5th when the price went up from 145 to 165pts.. its no longer worth it.

Whirlwinds are great fun to play against hoards, and are ok for the rest of the time but probably arent worth the 85pts cost.


I play SW so not quite nilla marines but I rarely take more then 1 heavy support option. My anti-tank is mostly taken as elites or HQ (inquisitor lord with gun servitor gets you 2 heavy bolters, a multimelta and a psycannon... plus the ability to have a free shot at DSing enemies for close to devy squad points except they have more ablative wounds and only a slightly worse save). I could occasionally use a heavy bolter devy squad for support but I tend not to alter my lists much anymore (and my devy squad is a LOT more expensive then SM).

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post #5 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-25-09, 05:35 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the advice. I suppose with what I'm left with for another question is this. What do I need for options in about a versatile 2k point collection? I am new to 40k, although I have been modeling and playing fantasy for about six years. So, I know its not going to be satisfying for very long to make up a single list collect, paint, play and change tactics completely (after I learn the rules). I'm trying to figure out in the heavy support department what I need to spend ~150 dollars on to fill out a collection for options under a 2k list?

For an assault or mechanized army, I'm considering 2x vindicators and a land raider. Then maybe fill the transports out with a razorback and 2 drop pods. So far in vehicles I have a land speeder, a land speeder storm and 2 rhinos.

So far what is appealing to me is a mobile infantry based list that is capable of a number of scenarios.

Until the Loki sector is free or we become extinct on Rynn...the Crimson Fists fight on in his grace's name.

Some links to ongoing painting logs covering space marines, orks, vampire counts and new small Warmachine Cryx project. Not to mention some pics of previously owned High Elves:

https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...ad.php?t=45147
https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...ad.php?t=55017
https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...526#post781526
https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...ad.php?t=85253
https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...413#post469413
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post #6 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-25-09, 06:00 PM
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Devestators live up to their name in nearly every type of battle, as long as you don't try to force this versatility, 4 lascannons is best, if you diversify then the whole is less than the sum of its parts.

'Raider wise a Redeemer will make almost anyone blanch. It's pure magic when it vomits 8 terminators into the enemy under cover of flack storms.

Drop pods with sternguard combi-meltas, can put a rock hard defence onto distant objectives, and with a beacon you can deepstrike loads of people in safety.

I completely agree with the vindicators.

A Space Marine can take a krak grenade, pull out the pin, eat the grenade, throw the pin, and the thrown pin will actually kill a normal man, whereas the Space Marine won't even have indigestion.

If it takes more than 20 bolter rounds to take something down, maybe you should leave it alone...

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post #7 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-25-09, 07:16 PM
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If I was making a nice rounded nilla marine army it would look something like:

Captain- relic blade, storm shield/combi-weapon
10 Tacs- melta, lascannon, powerfist combi-melta
- in rhino
10 Tacs- melta, multimelta, powerfist combi-melta
- in drop pod
10 Tacs- melta, plasma cannon, powerfist combi-melta
- combat squadded and given TLLC razorback
Scouts- powerfist, bolt pistols+ccw
- Storm with heavy flamer/multimelta
Dreadnaught- multimelta
- drop pod
Dreadnaught- multimelta
- drop pod
7 Assault Terminators (TH/SS)
- LRC with multimelta
Vindicator
Vindicator

- I think that comes to about 2050-2100 (I might drop 1 vindi to make it 2k) and is nicely rounded.
If you combat squad the tacs with razorback that gives you 5 scoring units: 1 that can outflank, 1 drop pods late game where needed, 1 to sit on a defensive objective and 2 to march accross the field supported by an LRC full of termies/character with dreads podding down to take the enemy in the rear with close range melta fire in the first turn and vindicators to draw fire or blast the enemy to bits.

I normally like to make a little tally of nastiness to see how much punch an army has at a glance:
combo-melta- 3
melta- 3
multimelta- 4 or 5
Lascannon- 2.5 (count TL as 1.5)
Plasmacannon - 1
Assault Cannon- 1.5
Demolisher cannons- 2
Powerfists/Thunderhammers- 11
Storm bolters- 5
bolters- 32
bolt pistols- 5

For something I just through together (and based largely on what you have already) that is a nasty amount of brute force... it needs some tailoring to you as a player since it has pretty much no flamers in it (would probably want to switch some of the meltas/combi-meltas to flamers/c-f to balance the list for hoards).
As I said before for my own armies most of the 'heavy support' in this army actually comes from the elites section (especially since the LRC in this list is a dedicated transport.. if you want it to be).


Last edited by Tim/Steve; 08-25-09 at 07:19 PM.
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post #8 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-25-09, 11:15 PM
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Your idea of 2 vindicators and a land raider is pretty good. It's an armoured wedge that your opponent will struggle to deal with. There is good synergy in putting 3 tanks with decent armour all together.

You should think hard about which variant of land raider you want. I tend to think of the crusader as the default version if you are actually transporting guys, which it looks like you will be doing with your termies. Turn one it drives forward and pops smoke, turn two it starts unloading tons of firepower.

The problem with this set up is that it leaves you short on long-ranged firepower. You will want to look at things like dreadnaughts and land speeder typhoons so you can engage distant targets. Get those, and you have the foundation of a pretty respectable force.


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post #9 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-26-09, 05:12 PM
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beta testing on the assault marines w/t out jumppacks. when i was younger i decided to make one. And with me i have about a 75 percent win rate with them.

The reason that they are good in my matches is because people tend to overlook them, but what they also overlook is the fact that i have a chaplain on the inside with them (i have to run them in a crusader because that is the only thing big enough to carry eleven models) but with the chaplain and one of his special rules, i get to re-roll all failed to hit attacks on the charge. ten marines with 2 attacks and then an extra on the charge is 30 attacks along with the five i get from the chaplain and his power weapon, not to mention their bolt pistol and plasma shots, and the shots from the crusader at rapid fire range. with that being said, their are very few squads no matter what size that can survive a tidal wave of shots and then an all out assault re-rolling hits, and all for the same price as a regular tac. squad, i think of this squad as a diamond in the rough. there are very few squads that can stand on an objective and survive this. with that being said i would most definately recommend getting one of these squads. I made mine out of the blood claws ten man space wolves box.

On the other hand comes your questions about the LR and vindicator.

vindicator all the way without doubt you need one, and considering the fluff behind your army it is a great choice.

LR- i stand a little torn on the land raider specific choice i.e you need one without doubt but the LRC or the regular LR, the LR is basically your most prized possession in a match simply because everyone knows if it isn't killed it will kill, so you basically have a huge target floating around the board and has the best armor all the way around n the 40k universe, so people are trying to kill this whilst the workers go around the board almost untouched. now i am torn because the crusader is a great choice whilst assaulting an objective, but what happens when you get an annihilation mission, then the LR is the better choice simply because you have an awesome tank buster that can sit back and shoot across basically the entire board, and if its in cover now the best armor in the game can roll a 4+ and be perfectly unharmed. So there lies the dilemma. But if you have a good dreadnaught... then your in good shape.

so leads us to the dreadnaught situation. you have a crusader and your in an annihilation match, well if the dread is a venerable and has tank hunters on it the your lascannon now strikes at strength 10 and your missle launcher is strength 9... wonderful now your crusader goes headhunting for the troops and your dread pops all the baddies that threaten your vindicator, and your vindicator can go around killing all the TEQ's

So thats my piece on where you should go with the crimson fist, hope you will post some updates.
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post #10 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-26-09, 08:17 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the feedback guys. So for heavy support, I'm going with at least one Vindicator and Land Raider. I may end up getting one unit of 5 devastators for smaller list and such. Oh, and Razorbacks? Do people use them much? If so, when and where (I assume with a character or captain and 5 veterans for objectives, etc.)? And, that reminds me, what about a razorback upgrades for a small unit of assault marines trading their jump packs for a rhino? Coupled with a character, this would be a solid (low-point) assault squad, aye?

Until the Loki sector is free or we become extinct on Rynn...the Crimson Fists fight on in his grace's name.

Some links to ongoing painting logs covering space marines, orks, vampire counts and new small Warmachine Cryx project. Not to mention some pics of previously owned High Elves:

https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...ad.php?t=45147
https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...ad.php?t=55017
https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...526#post781526
https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...ad.php?t=85253
https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...413#post469413

Last edited by sphere830; 08-26-09 at 09:57 PM.
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