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post #21 of 44 (permalink) Old 01-30-07, 01:00 AM
 
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Yeah... the Vindicator's Marksman skill (pg 26 Daemonhunters) discusses choosing which model you can kill, and says he needs to have range and sight, so an ability limiting his sight would still affect the vindicare. And more specifically, the fact he has the Spy Mask only asserts that he is subject to sight limiting abilities such as Night Fight. However, the Veil's ability isn't night fight, so his mask isn't going to help him shoot the shadowseer.

Claiming that 'ignores targeting restrictions' includes being able to ignore Veil of Tears is a pretty 'between the lines' reading of the rules. What about the mountain in between my shadowseer and your assassin? That's a targeting restriction, can't he ignore it? Of course not.
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post #22 of 44 (permalink) Old 01-30-07, 03:30 PM
 
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The Veil of Tears specifically says "Attempting to target" Line of sight does not apply to Veil of Tears, nor is it ever mentioned. "Spotting" distance is what you roll to target them.

The Vindicare ignores ALL targeting restrictions except for range and line of sight.
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post #23 of 44 (permalink) Old 01-30-07, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Necrontyr
The Veil of Tears specifically says "Attempting to target" Line of sight does not apply to Veil of Tears, nor is it ever mentioned. "Spotting" distance is what you roll to target them.

The Vindicare ignores ALL targeting restrictions except for range and line of sight.
The answer to your argument is right in your own post. The Vindicare can ignore all targeting restrictions except for two, range and LOS. Veil of Tears is an ability that is a targeting restriction, so he ignores it unless it either affects range or line of sight. What does Veil of Tears affect? Range! Which is a targeting restriction it specifically says he has to follow! (And really, range is not a targeting restriction, but for the sake of this argument we'll assume it's one.)

You underlined the wrong word in your post:

"The Vindicare ignores ALL targeting restrictions except for range and line of sight."

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post #24 of 44 (permalink) Old 01-30-07, 09:39 PM
 
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Range as in Range of his gun, Veil of Tears does not affect the range of any weapon, only the range in which the unit can be targeted. Nothing in the game changes the range of your weapons, only the range in which you can see, or like veil of tears, the range you can target.
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post #25 of 44 (permalink) Old 01-31-07, 01:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Necrontyr
Range as in Range of his gun, Veil of Tears does not affect the range of any weapon, only the range in which the unit can be targeted. Nothing in the game changes the range of your weapons, only the range in which you can see, or like veil of tears, the range you can target.
Where did I say anything about the range of his gun? Where does his rules say anything about the range of his gun? Veil of Tears affects his spotting distance, you said that yourself. Your spotting distance is the range you can see and thus the range you can fire at regardless of the range of your weapon. His rules specifically state that he ignores targeting restrictions except for range and LOS. If his range is reduced to 12 inches because of a spotting distance restriction, it wouldn't matter if his gun was 120" range because, as you said yourself, spotting distance has nothing to do with the range of the gun. Nothing in his rules state or even suggest that he is immune to effects taht reduce his spotting distance and in fact the very presence of his night fighting wargear suggests the exact opposite of what you're claiming.

I don't mean to sound like a jerk but setting up a straw man argument isn't going to help you prove your point.

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post #26 of 44 (permalink) Old 01-31-07, 02:08 AM
 
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Alright, since it's obvious we'll never have a consensus, I move for a vote for who thinks this actually works.

I vote no, on the basis that you're buggering with words.
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post #27 of 44 (permalink) Old 01-31-07, 02:23 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warboss Dakka
Ahh, but Night Fight does not affect the range of any weapon either, and affects the range at which a unit can be targeted just like Veil of Tears, and yet he is not immune to Night Fight rules. Also, does it say "Range as in the range of his weapon" or mention the range of his weapon at all? Or does it just say range? You can't argue semantics and nit pick about RAW wording when it supports your case and then make ambiguous assumptions and ignore the RAW when it doesn't.
PG 84 Of your Rule Book:
"Roll 2D6 and multiply the result by 3, rolling once per unit only. This is the maximum range that any non-barrage weapon can fire."
Seems pretty obvious there.

PG 49 of the Eldar Codex:
"Any unit wishing to target the Shadowseer or unit she is with must roll 2D6. This is their spotting distance in inches."

Veil of Tears has nothing to do with line of sight, nor with range. It has to do with targeting. The test is rolled to target the unit. Night fight is rolled to determine range. Since a Vindicare ignores targetting restrictions, it is a fair argument to say they ignore Veil of Tears.

But, this is the joy of the internet! We can argue about rules all we want here and not lose any time in our games, but if it ever did came up in a game, I would just say roll a D6 and be done with it.
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post #28 of 44 (permalink) Old 01-31-07, 06:34 AM
 
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Plain and simple
Guess fire/ordinace/skatter gets past veil of tears since it does not specifically target the harlies and thats what viel of tears affects, units specifically targeting the squad
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post #29 of 44 (permalink) Old 01-31-07, 07:53 AM
 
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That has precisely dick to do with this debate.

I've gone back and read the Marksman special rule in its every appearance. Since by the direct written rule it is unspecific as to whether or not this works, it comes down to the designers' intent, whatever that may have been. As none of these Marksman rules were written with knowledge of this forthcoming Veil of Tears ability, and the Veil of Tears was obviously written in ignorance of the Marksman, I would have to say that the Marksman rule was not intended to allow the Vindicaire to target the unit.

However, since this is not actually substantiated or disproved, it'll have to come down to a roll in a game until a FAQ is written.
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post #30 of 44 (permalink) Old 01-31-07, 09:49 AM
 
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Quote:
Plain and simple
Guess fire/ordinace/skatter gets past veil of tears since it does not specifically target the harlies and thats what viel of tears affects, units specifically targeting the squad
This does indeed have nothing to do with the Marksman debate and is completely wrong into the bargain. Guess weapons still have to pick a target and are units firing at them, and as such come under the "Any unit wishing to target the harlies...".
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