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post #11 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-18-16, 09:19 AM
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Key words there. :D They are in more than one novel, bud. Thanks for the input though!
But there is only one ADB

I however put "The Unburdened" into my "to read list" (even if I fear that this book has principally been written as a support to the "Betrayal at Calth" game and that I would somehow be disappointed by the second batch of Gal Vorbak compared to the original ones).

Coming back to the real subject, now, "The Tormented" seems to be the closest formation to FW Gal Vorbak, but it remains rather expensive :

- The Daemon Prince can be set up as it is often used into "hardest" CSM lists (flying, mark of Nurgle, psyker 3) for a cost between 250 and 315 points (the latter with psyker 3 and an artefact like the Skull of Ker'ngar),

- The Possessed probably become the best melee troops of the Codex (except for the lack of offensive grenades, which is probably the most frustrating feature with them), even if they are still quite fragile for their cost. It's possible to strengthen them with marks of Khorne or Slaanesh and their related Icons, and VotLW is useful for their Ld test each turn (for a cost between 130 and 170 each, for only 5 Possessed in each squad),

- The main issue, as far as they don't use the "Crimson Slaughter's Slaves to the Voices" table, is to bring them into melee (preferrably at turn 2). That can be done with Landraiders (extremely expensive, because 2 of them are needed), FW Drop Pods (when allowed, making them even closer to the Gal Vorbak Rite of War in 30k) or by choosing Huron or Ahriman as Warlord of the army (allowing the infiltration of 1D3 units).

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post #12 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-19-16, 05:06 AM Thread Starter
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ADB is super over rated by newb brown nosers. They are way better out there.

Now, we're getting off topic...

Someone pointed out playing actual Chaos Spawn, but how many would you guys play?

That would be interesting, but since they only come in a box of two, I'm not quite sure how many to get!

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post #13 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-19-16, 06:40 AM
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ADB is super over rated by newb brown nosers. They are way better out there.
Wow ... many thanks for that compliment (even if I can't see who people would try to please so inelegantly by liking an author's work or not )

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Now, we're getting off topic...
You're right. And this one is definitely closed for me.

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post #14 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-19-16, 06:27 PM
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I honestly seem to be alone in not really caring for the Crimson Slaughter Possessed--if you could pick and choose which bonus you get per turn (say, like Oblits and Mutilators), the ability to a) speed up (if not in a vehicle), b) get cover (even if in a vehicle), and boost combat abilities might be nice--but as it stands, you have no control over when you are in combat gaining Shrouded or turning into Beasts, and that's 2/3 of the time no combat buffs.

The demerits for standard Possessed are that they are: over-priced, fragile, lacking combat grenades; and lacking mobility. Randomly helping out the fragile and lacking mobility, which are situationally needed, rather than reliably getting some sort of close combat buff... strikes me as inefficient. I can build around their slowness and fragility, not still have to build around it but hope for whichever 1/3 chance I need that turn. If I get them a Fire Raptor as a transport who cares if they turn into Beasts that turn? If they're stuck in combat who cares if they get Shrouded?

I want reliability, not flukey partial compensation for their flaws.

Anyways, Possessed are... not great, on paper. The best use I've found for them is as the second punch in a one-two wave in my Khorne Daemonkin army, since they're a necessary part of a Slaughter Cult formation. When I have 8-odd squads of minimum-strength Bikers and Flesh Hounds, a full Goretide, zipping forward, most of the time my opponents don't really have the shooting to also focus on my 5 Possessed (with naked lord with Bloodthirster-summonging axe in) and the 2 squads of 10 CSM who disembark from their Rhinos after running forward to hit in a second wave behind all the Maulerfiends, Bikers, Flesh Hounds, etc. When your opponent is juggling too many other targets to shoot at, and the Possessed have both Rage and Furious Charge, they pack a surprising wallop against anything that isn't in 2+ armor.

*is not going to rise to the flamebait about AD-B, who is certainly in the upper tier of BL's authors. But then, also my favorite BL author is Matt Farrer, so clearly take my opinions with a grain of salt*

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post #15 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-19-16, 07:15 PM
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Why does nobody ever bring a Prince with the Burning Brand of Skalathrax? I don't tend to see that item around at all these days in fact, which is a shame, a mini-Heldrake Daemon Prince would be dope and it's a really good 'gotcha' to have stuck on a Sorceror or Slaanesh Lord or what have you.

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post #16 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-19-16, 08:46 PM Thread Starter
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Why does nobody ever bring a Prince with the Burning Brand of Skalathrax? I don't tend to see that item around at all these days in fact, which is a shame, a mini-Heldrake Daemon Prince would be dope and it's a really good 'gotcha' to have stuck on a Sorceror or Slaanesh Lord or what have you.
Honestly, I have been looking for a good formation for my Prince. This has given me a good idea! Thanks for this.

Also, would it be feasible to have a prince with a squad of a couple Hellspawn? Or does that not make sense at all?

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post #17 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-20-16, 11:41 AM
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Another Word Bearers player here, I have used possessed as both their 40K and 30K equivalents. But seeing as prefer my possessed ADB style, I tend to use the Crimson Slaughter supplement for mine. It may have just been me being very lucky, but a unit of 5 possessed with mark of tzeentch worked very well for me, with a 4+ (sometimes 2+) invun, they can be pretty survivable. And with the new Crimson Slaughter formations, feel no pain at no extra cost. As I said, I'm not sure if I'm just very lucky, but each game iv'e played, the possessed at the very least have made back their points.
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post #18 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-20-16, 07:49 PM
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Honestly, I have been looking for a good formation for my Prince. This has given me a good idea! Thanks for this.
I've never understood why people don't bring it - CSM Princes are pretty objectively worse than CD Princes, so make the most of what you do have and bring a Relic that, it turns out, is really well-suited to a Prince. Hell, I'd kill to have access to the BBoS for my Ultramarines, and my Guard would hardly turn their noses up at it.

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post #19 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-20-16, 08:28 PM
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CSM Princes are pretty objectively worse than CD Princes, so make the most of what you do have and bring a Relic that, it turns out, is really well-suited to a Prince.
Yeah. Though I'd probably take another Relic even more suited to a Prince first: namely, the Black Mace. Yeah, you have to get stuck in for it to have an effect, but... on the other hand, a Prince without one hits like a mere MC, rather than a freight train of pain. And a Heldrake is markedly cheaper for a higher-strength Torrent, even if it is harder to get a good cover save with and has some angles it needs to work on, now that it's 360 degree firing arc has been nerfed.

But yeah, CD DPs are generally better. Access to Greater Rewards for surivability, not having to take a crappy god-based psychic power... just about the only other edge for CSM DPs is the spell familiar. Well, that and the fact that the "Daemon of Nurgle" rule is worded slightly differently to give them defensive grenades in the CSM book, but talk about minute nit-picking, eh?

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post #20 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-20-16, 08:45 PM
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Yeah. Though I'd probably take another Relic even more suited to a Prince first: namely, the Black Mace. Yeah, you have to get stuck in for it to have an effect, but... on the other hand, a Prince without one hits like a mere MC, rather than a freight train of pain. And a Heldrake is markedly cheaper for a higher-strength Torrent, even if it is harder to get a good cover save with and has some angles it needs to work on, now that it's 360 degree firing arc has been nerfed.
Yeah, Black Mace helps you take out Wraithknights and Riptides, but against basically everything else I've never seen it make a huge difference, and even with the Mace a Daemon Prince just isn't very good in combat; I think they're super good at picking off Devastators, IG Veterans, Windriders, Tactical Squads etc. but if you find a basic SM Dreadnought to be a seriously risky proposition, you're probably not a very good assault unit. Hell, even charging 10 Tacticals through terrain (because you can't kill most of them with the Brand before you charge) is going to cost you a embarrassing couple of wounds from Krak Grenades. Better to fly about the place picking off the weak with your BBoS and landing to keep up that kind of work against backfield support units than gun for something that can actually fight back. The Heldrake has a stronger shot and is cheaper, for sure, but a Heldrake's going to get maybe four rounds of shooting if it doesn't get shot at all. A Prince can shoot every turn of the game, and that's a pretty big deal, as well as being much tougher (mainly through being really small and easy to hide) when he's on the ground to assault/get objectives.

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But yeah, CD DPs are generally better. Access to Greater Rewards for surivability, not having to take a crappy god-based psychic power... just about the only other edge for CSM DPs is the spell familiar. Well, that and the fact that the "Daemon of Nurgle" rule is worded slightly differently to give them defensive grenades in the CSM book, but talk about minute nit-picking, eh?
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