Assault Cannon or Cyclone Missile Launcher for Deathwing Terminators? - Page 2 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
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post #11 of 28 (permalink) Old 08-10-15, 09:42 PM Thread Starter
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All I really know as of yet is that they'll be Deep Striking.
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post #12 of 28 (permalink) Old 08-11-15, 01:46 AM
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I like working with the plastic glue
Yeah, everyone's got their preference for sure. I've been known to bust apart even painted models to revamp for current rule sets/effective loadouts that are done with being proxied.

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Gotcha I suppose, so if narrowed to the two I want, you'd say the CML?
Yes.

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Will also say I wonder about your Command Squad, I thought it wasn't legal to put a CML on a Hammernator or an Apothecary?
4x TH/SS (one for each model that isn't the Apothecary), one model from those equipped with a CML, and the Apothecary as they must be. Easy to miss with the way I typed it, forgive my shorthand.

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most I've heard discuss Imperial Heavy Weapons seem to hate the Plasma Cannon for the unreliability of Small Blasts mostly
Small blasts only become unreliable when your opponent know how to, and consistently does, space their models appropriately.

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which resonated since I know I'll be facing Nids and Guard
There's crucial info right there. If you're facing horde armies hells yea, CML all day. I'd still stray away from the AC though since it's 20 points and honestly just doesn't cut it without twin-linked for me...though as a BA player primarily I'm spoiled with TLACs almost everywhere I look.

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Seems like it'd only be better against massed MEQs and TEQs, with the other two better against horde infantry and vehicles.
You're half right. The PC is for sure better against T/MEQ, but it does the same amount of damage to GEQ and worse as well...just without the second blast (or points cost, CML blasts are also S4 which can leave you wanting sometimes). ACs are a joke against vehicles at S6 even with Rending (being that the AP2 factor of Rending doesn't apply against a vehicle). The potential is there, but in all honesty you're just not stacking the odds enough in your favour and Guard is pretty much all AV12+ with few exceptions unless you're flanking and Terminators are hella slow. CMLs can do damage to a tank, but with AP3 you're almost never going to wreck anything in one turn; you'll end up putting two different squad's CMLs (50 points of upgrades) into the same tank just to get results. Again the potential is there in that you could get two pens and two Immobilized results, but in all the time I've used them I've never had that happen to me. The S7 from a PC has a rough time dealing with tanks to be sure as 5 to glance AV12 is nothing to count on, but AP2 is where real anti-tank starts with the current Damage Chart.

tl;dr:
Against AV12 and 3HP (based off attacking a Chimera's front armour)
-CML has two shots at S8 need a 5 to pen and can't wreck a vehicle without both coming up Immobilized
-AC is pretty much the same, but needs a 6 just to enable Rending and then at least two 6's again to wreck
-PC needs a 6 just the same, but can blow up the vehicle with its a single shot

Unfortunately Canada got rid of the penny and now my two cents rounds down to zero, so...take it for what you will.

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post #13 of 28 (permalink) Old 08-11-15, 09:56 PM Thread Starter
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I see what you mean with all that, probably should go with the CML then, can change stuff later if needed I suppose. Thank you for the info, might reconsider the Plasma Cannon on my future Command Squad!

On a sidenote, the wording says that the Lightning Claws or Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield replace all weapons, so wouldn't that make the CML Hammernator illegal? Or do you have a house rule?
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post #14 of 28 (permalink) Old 08-11-15, 11:46 PM
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Oh man, you had me worried for a minute there. Like, almost pissed at yet another thing nullified for my beloved Deathwing army with the new 'dex.

Right until I read the caveat '1' (pg.97, bottom right in italics) which applies solely to the CML:

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Does not replace the model's storm bolter.
So you can swap all your weapons for a TH/SS as per the entry, then take one item from the Terminator Heavy Weapon list which doesn't need to replace any weapons. The way I read it,

1) DW Terminator comes with SB/PF base
2) swaps SB/PF for TH/SS (all stock weapons have been replaced)
3) 5 models in the squad unlocks an item from the THW list
4) model with TH/SS takes CML as it is the only weapon that doesn't swap out the SB

I know the vernacular is subtly different than in the old book, but does that jive with you?

Unfortunately Canada got rid of the penny and now my two cents rounds down to zero, so...take it for what you will.

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post #15 of 28 (permalink) Old 08-12-15, 08:37 AM Thread Starter
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Honestly that sounds highly dubious to me, but as long as your opponents are okay with it, I suppose it's fine.
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post #16 of 28 (permalink) Old 08-12-15, 11:25 AM
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Honestly that sounds highly dubious to me
Why?

Unfortunately Canada got rid of the penny and now my two cents rounds down to zero, so...take it for what you will.

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post #17 of 28 (permalink) Old 08-14-15, 07:26 PM Thread Starter
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Well... It's worded to say "replace all weapons with..." and while you get to keep the Storm Bolter, the weapon list saying "replace Storm Bolter with..." suggests that you need to have a Storm Bolter to use the list.

Nevertheless as long as your opponents are fine with you doing that, there really isn't a problem.
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post #18 of 28 (permalink) Old 08-14-15, 08:33 PM
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It's worded to say "replace all weapons with..."
All stock weapons are replaced, both the storm bolter and power fist are swapped.

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the weapon list saying "replace Storm Bolter with..." suggests that you need to have a Storm Bolter to use the list
No it doesn't. That little '1' next to the cyclone missile launcher reads "does not replace the model's storm bolter" at the bottom right hand corner of the same page (97, for reference).

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Nevertheless as long as your opponents are fine with you doing that, there really isn't a problem.
It has nothing to do with them really. I honestly don't even feel like I'm remotely 'cheating the system' as in the old book this was perfectly valid since the wording was "for every five models in the squad one model may take a CML". It's hardly different in this edition, it's essentially "for every five models in the squad one model may take a CML and this does not replace the model's storm bolter". What part of the rules have been violated? All weapons swapped for TH/SS: Check. CML upgrade taken with 5 members to the squad and no stormbolter swapped: Check. Badass model that keeps a CC unit relevant at a distance while costing almost as much as a tricked out Scout squad:



Check. (75 points in one model )

Still feel like it's questionable? I don't mean to come off pushy, by all means if I'm wrong I want to know. I just definitely feel like it's a matter of RAW and RAI both pointing to the same thing. Maybe we get some other opinions on this.. @Xabre , @MidnightSun , got any thoughts on the subject?

Unfortunately Canada got rid of the penny and now my two cents rounds down to zero, so...take it for what you will.

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post #19 of 28 (permalink) Old 08-14-15, 08:50 PM Thread Starter
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It doesn't say specify stock weapons though, it says "replace all weapons", not just the ones they start with.

Never disputed that it doesn't replace the SB, just pointed out that "replace Storm Bolter with..." suggests that you need a Storm Bolter in the first place to be using that list, even if it says later on that you keep it .

I do see what you mean though, not saying it's ABSOLUTELY false so much as just dubious. I guess I never really thought of it before this discussion because I just assumed that "replaces all weapons" meant that you don't get to have anything else. Might ask about this on the other 40k forum I frequent and see what they say (since that's where I first "confirmed" this idea).

And yeah, that model costs more than my Scout Squad (4 Bolters + Heavy Bolter with Hellfire), but would probably kick their ass I suspect.

EDIT: Made that topic and it seems the consensus is that you can't have a CML on top of a Hammernator according to RAW. But again I'm sure that if you clear it with your opponents all will be well!

Last edited by CrashGordon94; 08-14-15 at 10:32 PM.
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post #20 of 28 (permalink) Old 08-15-15, 12:02 PM
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I just read the Dakka thread, and I end up siding with Quannar, or whatever his name was.

You read it from top to bottom in the data sheet. Any model can replace ALL weapons (which is the powerfist and stormbolter at the time of taking the option) with TH/SS.

Then you get to the next option, which says you can take any heavy weapon. Ok, you head to that spot, you read... AC? No, you've already replaced your bolter. Plasma? Nope, already replaced bolter. CML? Yes, you don't need to replace your stormbolter.

You're simply going in sequential order. There's already a precedent to go with it; take a look at Farsight, for instance. The infamous 'Eight'. nothing can join a monstrous creature, so no one can join TO O'Vesa (the riptide). But any IC can join a group, so O'Vesa can JOIN, just not BE JOINED.

it's all a timing issue. I would absolutely still allow it, because RAW, every rule is satisfied in the order it was presented to the player.

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