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40k Tactics Discuss the art of war in the 41st millenium. Exceptional topics will be stickied.

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post #51 of 59 (permalink) Old 01-29-14, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Creon View Post
I think you mean pens into glances.

Yeah he most definitely does - glances into pens would be a monumentally crap piece of wargear to take

Second only to demonic possession on a csm transport -
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post #52 of 59 (permalink) Old 01-29-14, 03:24 PM
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I'd strongly disagree. Tau ignore cover left right and center, and still lose regularly to Eldar. Likewise Daemons.

At the end of the day you're turning Glances into Pens on a 2+ which means that something like a Multimelta takes three damaging shots to kill you with almost NO chance for a single shot to take you out. That makes you about twice as survivable than a Land Raider (which is slightly harder to penetrate, but doesn't have Fields).

Armies that move fast into CC are either light infantry hordes (which Serpents eat all day long) or deathstar jetbikes, in which case they can only kill 1 serpent per turn, and then spend the next turn killing the unit inside. Taking account getting into position, a Jetseer council (for example) will only drop two Serpents in a game, which hurts, but it's ~400pts of the enemy army doing nothing else, which is acceptable.
I operate under the assumption that you will never get pen'ed. Meaning any unit that ignores cover and can put 3 glancing hits on a AV 12 will ruin them. If the Tau are putting Ignores Cover onto units with Burst Cannons then of course they won't do much. Stick that on some Tank Hunter Broadsides or (dare i say) Dark Reapers and suddenly the tanks become a liability.

Something fast and can get into CC, Beast Masters, Harlequins, any Biker with a Power/Chain Fist, Most flying MCs, Wraithknights, etc etc. These units can easily kill a Serpent and handle getting shot and charged by the units inside often enough. So what if you get shot/charged, the point is to destroy the transport.

The Eldar, more than any other army, should not only look at the output of each unit individually, but the synergy of multiple units together and their role in the force as a whole. - Fable


Last edited by Ragewind; 01-29-14 at 03:28 PM. Reason: spelling
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post #53 of 59 (permalink) Old 01-29-14, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Creon View Post
I think you mean pens into glances.
Fixed, thanks.

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Originally Posted by Creon View Post
And you're assuming a system that doesn't get behind your Wave Serpents. Like, oh, Deep striking or a drop pod.
If you allow a Drop Pod or Deep Striking unit into your rear arc without at least a 4+ cover between you and them (and more often, impossible to draw LoS) then you deserve everything you get.

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Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
I operate under the assumption that you will never get pen'ed. Meaning any unit that ignores cover and can put 3 glancing hits on a AV 12 will ruin them. If the Tau are putting Ignores Cover onto units with Burst Cannons then of course they won't do much. Stick that on some Tank Hunter Broadsides or (dare i say) Dark Reapers and suddenly the tanks become a liability.

Something fast and can get into CC, Beast Masters, Harlequins, any Biker with a Power/Chain Fist, Most flying MCs, Wraithknights, etc etc. These units can easily kill a Serpent and handle getting shot and charged by the units inside often enough. So what if you get shot/charged, the point is to destroy the transport.
Name me something in the Eldar codex that the above units WOULDN'T ruin that is a better choice than a Serpent in a list against those armies. You're proposing that Serpents will "lose you the game" and are "a liability". I'd like to hear what you would be buying with the points instead without list tailoring. And please, tell me you were joking about Harlequins being able to handle getting shot by 10+ Catapults...

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post #54 of 59 (permalink) Old 01-29-14, 07:02 PM
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I've never played on a board where you can get "impossible to see" LOS between a Wave Serpent and it's rear arc. My gaming area doesn't play with thick ruins or intact buildings much and that's in general the only thing that I would imagine blocking los totally. I don't see them as a liability or a game winner. They are a very strong unit in a codex of very strong units. They are very flexible, which is what I like about them.
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post #55 of 59 (permalink) Old 01-30-14, 03:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Sethis View Post
Fixed, thanks.



If you allow a Drop Pod or Deep Striking unit into your rear arc without at least a 4+ cover between you and them (and more often, impossible to draw LoS) then you deserve everything you get.



Name me something in the Eldar codex that the above units WOULDN'T ruin that is a better choice than a Serpent in a list against those armies. You're proposing that Serpents will "lose you the game" and are "a liability". I'd like to hear what you would be buying with the points instead without list tailoring. And please, tell me you were joking about Harlequins being able to handle getting shot by 10+ Catapults...
Stealth and Shrouding isn't enough to survive those hits? Really? A 2+ cover save will lose very few models on a volley like that, and if you are using Guardians or Avengers to achieve those numbers they will probably fall to whats left of the squad if you can't handle it. (assuming 10 DA's you will wound them 10 times on average and they will lose 2 models)

You can spend those points on whatever you like, am I telling you to not take serpents? No, I am saying don't spam them and rely on that save to make you lazy on positioning.

The Eldar, more than any other army, should not only look at the output of each unit individually, but the synergy of multiple units together and their role in the force as a whole. - Fable

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post #56 of 59 (permalink) Old 01-30-14, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Creon View Post
I've never played on a board where you can get "impossible to see" LOS between a Wave Serpent and it's rear arc. My gaming area doesn't play with thick ruins or intact buildings much and that's in general the only thing that I would imagine blocking los totally. I don't see them as a liability or a game winner. They are a very strong unit in a codex of very strong units. They are very flexible, which is what I like about them.
That's what the table edge is for. Park your Serpent's ass roughly 3" from the edge and it's impossibly to DS behind. Also, a lack of complete LoS blocking terrain is a HUGE issue that your gaming area could do with addressing, because it massively benefits shooting armies, and they're already more than strong enough as it is, they don't need any further help. Trust me, you will notice the difference if you add two to three large pieces of solid cover to your tabletops.

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Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
Stealth and Shrouding isn't enough to survive those hits? Really? A 2+ cover save will lose very few models on a volley like that, and if you are using Guardians or Avengers to achieve those numbers they will probably fall to whats left of the squad if you can't handle it. (assuming 10 DA's you will wound them 10 times on average and they will lose 2 models)
Firstly, if they just assaulted you, exactly what cover are they using? Secondly, that's only DE harlies (if they haven't been FAQ'd yet). Current gen Eldar Harlies roll to see using 2D6x2, which you can safely ignore with Catapults, resulting in 10 wounds or 6.6 casualties. Guardians and Avengers are identical offensively apart from a 6" range gap, and the FC initiative change means you're striking simultaneously in combat, so even 5 Avengers will get 10 more attacks against the Harlies, dropping 2 more and a chance for Overwatch to drop yet another. And that's even if they caught you (how?).

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Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
You can spend those points on whatever you like, am I telling you to not take serpents? No, I am saying don't spam them and rely on that save to make you lazy on positioning.
No, you're saying in your previous posts that they are "a liability and will lose you the game" against armies that ignore cover or have fast assault elements. Word for word. That pretty much translates into "don't take them" in my view. If you meant to say "write balanced lists" or "play well" then I would have 100% agreed with you from the start, but that's not what you said.

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post #57 of 59 (permalink) Old 01-30-14, 03:18 PM
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Firstly, if they just assaulted you, exactly what cover are they using? Secondly, that's only DE harlies (if they haven't been FAQ'd yet). Current gen Eldar Harlies roll to see using 2D6x2, which you can safely ignore with Catapults, resulting in 10 wounds or 6.6 casualties. Guardians and Avengers are identical offensively apart from a 6" range gap, and the FC initiative change means you're striking simultaneously in combat, so even 5 Avengers will get 10 more attacks against the Harlies, dropping 2 more and a chance for Overwatch to drop yet another. And that's even if they caught you (how?).
Haha, I've tried to block the CE Harlies from my mind, its so bad now. Yea I would recommend allying in some Harlies in that case, the DE one's are clearly superior.

Quote:
No, you're saying in your previous posts that they are "a liability and will lose you the game" against armies that ignore cover or have fast assault elements. Word for word. That pretty much translates into "don't take them" in my view. If you meant to say "write balanced lists" or "play well" then I would have 100% agreed with you from the start, but that's not what you said.
They will, that's a fact. Against certain armies only of course, a balanced list would not fall against such a army but if you are taking like 6 Tanks, you will lose in that case. In other words don't spam them.

The Eldar, more than any other army, should not only look at the output of each unit individually, but the synergy of multiple units together and their role in the force as a whole. - Fable

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post #58 of 59 (permalink) Old 01-30-14, 04:06 PM
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Haha, I've tried to block the CE Harlies from my mind, its so bad now. Yea I would recommend allying in some Harlies in that case, the DE one's are clearly superior.
Taking a Raider is fum! It actually works with Eldar, since you have a bunch of very tough hulls to hide it behind rather than more paper planes. Assaulting out of transports is one thing Dark Eldar can still do, even if it's a tiny countermeasure for the massive pile of fail that is the rest of the army.

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post #59 of 59 (permalink) Old 01-30-14, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Sethis View Post
and the FC initiative change means you're striking simultaneously in comba
Harlies still have better Init than other eldar troops. I6 on harlies, I5 on the troops (exarchs have I6)...they will still get shot to pieces...

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