Are Eldar Flyers Competitive? - Page 4 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
40k Tactics Discuss the art of war in the 41st millenium. Exceptional topics will be stickied.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #31 of 42 (permalink) Old 01-24-14, 04:28 PM
Autarch of Heresy
 
Ragewind's Avatar
Ragewind's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 886
Reputation: 20
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sethis View Post
Hostility?

Point out to me where I've insulted you in any way, and I'll sincerely apologise.

I think I insulted the caliber of your opponents twice, but not you!

Oh, and I also rather thoroughly panned Dark Reapers, but I hope you won't take that personally.
Looks lets take a step and see what the original question was. Are Crimson Hunters competitive? My answer is "Maybe" (the Wraith Flyers are clearly not)

IF you spend points to baby them, IF you counter the normal threats, then yes. They will own the skys and only ON OCCASION get shot down by rapid firing Tau. For example a Hunter Exarch (which you should never take) is great at killing enemy MC's with some Star Cannons.

IF you don't spend the points required to fit them into your lists they will literately crash and burn, in this case the "points required" vary from list to list and player to player.

If you are going to spend 300 points on a Wraithknight, then you can 300 spend points on a 8 man Reaper unit with Krakk upgrades instead. Nothing else in the Eldar codex can handle the wide variety of threats that an Eldar player faces on average these days. While the new Nid book is not exactly a power house I remind you 9-11 Krakk missiles (hopefully with Twin Link and Monster Hunter) is excellent in taking out a three man Fex unit, AND can kill opposing Wraithknights quickly etc etc.

While you don't seem to like the idea of taking Tau as allys, especially if the Commander is just providing buffs...like a farseer, you cannot deny the reliability of Ignore Cover and such. In this situation you don't HAVE to take one, but when you fight against someone who does and they wipe unit after unit without providing a save its going to feel frustrating.

As my signature clearly suggests "The Eldar, more than any other army, should not only look at the output of each unit individually, but the synergy of multiple units together and their role in the force as a whole. - Fable"
Taking one or two Reapers units can be expensive and they CAN die easily, when you throw the weight of the remaining army behind it however then everything, even Shinning Spears, shine.

I also HIGHLY recommend taking some sort of defensive fortification, in this specific case of Crimson Hunters, Void Shields will protect your flyers if you but fly them in the bubble. For a measly 100 points (the cost of a Defense Line+Quad) you are stopping all but the most dedicated AA options. If you are feeling frisky you can pump even more points and basically make them (and everything else under the shields) immune to ranged firepower.

While you very clearly do not have to take Reapers, IF you are taking Crimson Hunters and want to make the most of them, I highly recommend taking at least one unit of them to make them Competitive. Otherwise (as you pointed out) without some favorable terrain its going to be rough keeping them alive.

The Eldar, more than any other army, should not only look at the output of each unit individually, but the synergy of multiple units together and their role in the force as a whole. - Fable

Ragewind is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 42 (permalink) Old 01-24-14, 05:01 PM
Senior Member
 
Sethis's Avatar
Sethis's Flag is: United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Alston, Cumbria
Posts: 4,190
Reputation: 58
Default

I'm afraid I don't really see how taking one mediocre unit to support another mediocre unit to the tune of ~500pts non scoring models is a good idea. Just don't take mediocre units in the first place would be my response.

90% of people think they are above average.

Statistically Improbable. Psychologically Inevitable.
Sethis is offline  
post #33 of 42 (permalink) Old 01-24-14, 05:02 PM
Autarch of Heresy
 
Ragewind's Avatar
Ragewind's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 886
Reputation: 20
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sethis View Post
I'm afraid I don't really see how taking one mediocre unit to support another mediocre unit to the tune of ~500pts non scoring models is a good idea. Just don't take mediocre units in the first place would be my response.
What would you do then to keep at least 1 of 3 flyers alive by turn 5? If your not taking Hunters then you will need to look to allies to take care of AA.

The Eldar, more than any other army, should not only look at the output of each unit individually, but the synergy of multiple units together and their role in the force as a whole. - Fable

Ragewind is offline  
 
post #34 of 42 (permalink) Old 01-24-14, 05:18 PM
Rattlehead
 
MidnightSun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: New Sheoth
Posts: 6,741
Reputation: 83
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
If your not taking Hunters then you will need to look to allies to take care of AA.
Exactly - bring Tau, because, well, at least you'll be running something original

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sethis View Post
Just don't take mediocre units in the first place would be my response.
So why Wraithknights? They're a mediocre unit, but you tend to rate those. Not being confrontational, just curious

Creator of Utilitarian Ultramarines Memes - join the XIII on Facebook (no XVII allowed).
MidnightSun is offline  
post #35 of 42 (permalink) Old 01-24-14, 05:40 PM
Senior Member
 
Sethis's Avatar
Sethis's Flag is: United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Alston, Cumbria
Posts: 4,190
Reputation: 58
Default

I don't take Wraithknights - I don't know how they entered the discussion at all? I still believe that Knights are a "reasonable but not OP" choice, despite all the apparant bitching and whining about them.

Frankly I don't run serious AA, and never have. I find wiping out the entirity of my enemies Troops while keeping at least one unit of mine alive til T5 serves to win me games while ignoring anything in the sky.

That 400+pts of Reapers buys me two more Guardians/Avengers+Serpents that are a million times more survivable, kick out equivalent firepower, and do so while moving 6-12" per turn and capping objectives instead of being stuck behind a wall.

90% of people think they are above average.

Statistically Improbable. Psychologically Inevitable.
Sethis is offline  
post #36 of 42 (permalink) Old 01-24-14, 05:51 PM
Rattlehead
 
MidnightSun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: New Sheoth
Posts: 6,741
Reputation: 83
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sethis View Post
I don't take Wraithknights - I don't know how they entered the discussion at all? I still believe that Knights are a "reasonable but not OP" choice, despite all the apparant bitching and whining about them.
It was a response to your 'Don't take mediocre units' comment - I admit, not entirely relevant, but I've been wanting to know the big appeal of Wraithknights for a while and tried to segway into it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sethis View Post
]Frankly I don't run serious AA, and never have. I find wiping out the entirity of my enemies Troops while keeping at least one unit of mine alive til T5 serves to win me games while ignoring anything in the sky.
I tried that against a Heldrake. It doesn't work. Admittedly, that's with Marines, but you can't just 'ignore' a Heldrake.

Creator of Utilitarian Ultramarines Memes - join the XIII on Facebook (no XVII allowed).

Last edited by MidnightSun; 01-24-14 at 07:38 PM.
MidnightSun is offline  
post #37 of 42 (permalink) Old 01-24-14, 06:44 PM
Senior Member
 
Sethis's Avatar
Sethis's Flag is: United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Alston, Cumbria
Posts: 4,190
Reputation: 58
Default

I find I can, since Chaos lists tend to rely on Plaguies (expensive and few) or Cultists (Serpents lol) so they're welcome to Vector Strike a Serpent per turn at S7 and have their flamers do nothing until they manage to disembark one of my units. He's going to run out of Troops long before I do, and there's no way even two Heldrakes are taking down 4-6 Serpents in one game.

90% of people think they are above average.

Statistically Improbable. Psychologically Inevitable.
Sethis is offline  
post #38 of 42 (permalink) Old 01-24-14, 07:39 PM
Rattlehead
 
MidnightSun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: New Sheoth
Posts: 6,741
Reputation: 83
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sethis View Post
I find I can, since Chaos lists tend to rely on Plaguies (expensive and few) or Cultists (Serpents lol) so they're welcome to Vector Strike a Serpent per turn at S7 and have their flamers do nothing until they manage to disembark one of my units. He's going to run out of Troops long before I do, and there's no way even two Heldrakes are taking down 4-6 Serpents in one game.
Ah, the joys of Eldar, where you can paint up your really nice infantry models in interesting schemes and never, ever see them

Creator of Utilitarian Ultramarines Memes - join the XIII on Facebook (no XVII allowed).
MidnightSun is offline  
post #39 of 42 (permalink) Old 01-24-14, 08:19 PM
Senior Member
 
Sethis's Avatar
Sethis's Flag is: United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Alston, Cumbria
Posts: 4,190
Reputation: 58
Default

Yeah, pretty much. That's why my grav tanks have freehand and crap on them while the guardians are 3 colour basic level

90% of people think they are above average.

Statistically Improbable. Psychologically Inevitable.
Sethis is offline  
post #40 of 42 (permalink) Old 01-27-14, 05:16 PM
Senior Member
 
Styro-J's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,709
Reputation: 6
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sethis View Post
You're gambling that:

1. You can destroy their Quad by turn 2. This isn't too difficult with as much S6+ that Eldar can through out against something with only a couple wounds a mediocre save. So I consider that less of a challenge and more of a "remember to do this."

2. Your flyer comes on after their flyers. This is the real risky part. Other than playing reserves games, the only other option is to stay back to force the opposing flyer to deploy aggressively if it wants to attack the CH. This can serve to pull the opponent into dangerous waters near other ground threats or limit its potential threat the following turns. If you want the contents of a flyer (or the flyer itself) near a particular wave serpent then this may be the method for you.

3. They don't have any Skyfire apart from the Quad. Most non-Quad Skyfire options are weak either in terms of range, mobility, and/or survivability. The Space Marine tanks are rather squishy (and not very useful from what I've seen). Broadsides with missiles don't have the range to threaten the backboard with Interceptor and if they only have Skyfire the CH could easily dampen their day before they have a chance to shoot.

And you're spending more points than a Wave Serpent for less overall firepower. Overall, yes. But the Hunter does have better odds of destroying AV12+ vehicles, Flyers, and better chances of wounding (f)MC's. Each of which are fairly prominent these days.

In most situations I think I'd rather take other units to perform the same role, such as:
Walkers Which cost a similar amount for similar fire power on a similarly fragile platform. Yes, you can get 4 S8 AP2 shots for 20 points less, but in that instance you lose the Skyfire versatility. In terms of killing flyers and FMCs this unit would have a hard time keeping up even with Guide. It does have the benefit of being able to fire the first turn, however.

Prisms Only really compare to a CH in terms of hunting TEQ and such. It's anti AV13 or less lags behind the CH, and it poses almost no threat to flyers. It does however boast a harder shell with a decent save (which can be said of all Eldar tanks)

Wraithknights Have similar tank busting abilities, are much more expensive, but much more durable. WK lag against flyers and any MC that doesn't get ID'd. The lack of shots againt infantry is made up with a semi-competent assault ability.
The problem isn't that Eldar flyers are weak. With the exception of the Hemlock, most Eldar flyers are extremely effective at their jobs. All of them suffer from the risks of Interceptor though. Luckily they have reasonably ranged gear and the special rules to better let them take advantage of their range. Assuming you can kill off a single emplaced weapon, you will have a much easier time maneuvering around the board the rest of the game. Many times I find that my Hunters rarely have to leave my deployment zone and often camp my board edge for a good number of turns.

All lists should be made with the rest of the list in mind. That isn't something unique to CH lists, its the way any good list should be built. While the CH is not a top tier flyer it does its job well enough. Fast Attack is one of Eldar's most contested slots. Is this a job for the Hunter or the Spider?
Styro-J is offline  
Reply

  Lower Navigation
Go Back   Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums > Warhammer 40K > 40k Tactics

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome