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post #21 of 42 (permalink) Old 01-21-14, 01:30 PM
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Pink Muffins are way OP and only WAAC players use them. Using two even more so.

(substitute "Pink Muffins" for whatever unit you hate.)

I'm thinking of using a CH in an upcoming tourney. With Exarch as the only upgrade. I need some anti-air for my list which comprises mainly of very shooty stuff.

Strange, but not a Stranger.
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post #22 of 42 (permalink) Old 01-21-14, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by DeathKlokk View Post
Pink Muffins are way OP and only WAAC players use them. Using two even more so.

(substitute "Pink Muffins" for whatever unit you hate.)

I'm thinking of using a CH in an upcoming tourney. With Exarch as the only upgrade. I need some anti-air for my list which comprises mainly of very shooty stuff.
Omg how dare u ues Edlar, they're so op, Wave Serpents are invincible and kill every unit ever in 1 shot, you should feel terrible

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post #23 of 42 (permalink) Old 01-22-14, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Sethis View Post
I've always run mine as standard. 160pts is expensive enough without adding to it, and since Guide is 24" range with the option for a Jetbike to be taken then you ought to be in range if you need it most of the time.

I would have to say that they're mediocre, to be honest. You're gambling that:

1. You can destroy their Quad by turn 2.
2. Your flyer comes on after their flyers.
3. They don't have any Skyfire apart from the Quad.

And you're spending more points than a Wave Serpent for less overall firepower. In most situations I think I'd rather take other units to perform the same role, such as Walkers, Prisms and Wraithknights.
1: Dark Reapers
2: Go second
3: Dark Reapers

Edit: Dark Reapers with Ignores Cover (however you want to get it) Clearly the Reaper Rangefinders make a mockery of the Jink rule allowing you to kill enemy serpents unaided.

The Eldar, more than any other army, should not only look at the output of each unit individually, but the synergy of multiple units together and their role in the force as a whole. - Fable


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post #24 of 42 (permalink) Old 01-22-14, 05:06 PM
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1. I don't understand how you think S5 missiles sufficiently answer T7.

2. "Go second" is only a choice you get to make 50% of the time. Even if you do make the choice, they have a 33% (or 50%, if they have special rules) chance for each Flyer to not arrive. For every 33% chance they make, you have a 66% chance of arriving before them. I would call that a gamble.

3. I don't understand how you think Dark Reapers are a good answer to Skyfire/Interceptor units given that the strongest one in the game is probably Broadsides with a utility commander, who are T5 2W and 2+ Sv. Other Skyfire units include mainly other Flyers (which Reapers can't hit or Pen) or... AV14 buildings with emplacements?

The only Skyfire option Reapers would seem to answer would be Devs with Flakks, and who takes those?

I suppose you could be implying taking the S8 upgrade, but then you're spending 38pts per model for a T3 1W 3+ Sv guy with a Krak Missile, which is terrible in and of itself, and there is no way to ignore cover with them apart from Jinks.

90% of people think they are above average.

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post #25 of 42 (permalink) Old 01-22-14, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sethis View Post
1. I don't understand how you think S5 missiles sufficiently answer T7.

2. "Go second" is only a choice you get to make 50% of the time. Even if you do make the choice, they have a 33% (or 50%, if they have special rules) chance for each Flyer to not arrive. For every 33% chance they make, you have a 66% chance of arriving before them. I would call that a gamble.

3. I don't understand how you think Dark Reapers are a good answer to Skyfire/Interceptor units given that the strongest one in the game is probably Broadsides with a utility commander, who are T5 2W and 2+ Sv. Other Skyfire units include mainly other Flyers (which Reapers can't hit or Pen) or... AV14 buildings with emplacements?

The only Skyfire option Reapers would seem to answer would be Devs with Flakks, and who takes those?

I suppose you could be implying taking the S8 upgrade, but then you're spending 38pts per model for a T3 1W 3+ Sv guy with a Krak Missile, which is terrible in and of itself, and there is no way to ignore cover with them apart from Jinks.
The Str 8 handles everything your talking about, points cost or no. With a Farseer and Perfect Timing or a Tau Commander and a Sensor Suite you can kill Quad guns and their like without any resistance, most other AA options are AV 10 or AV 11 meaning Str 8 will punch through it. Even other Flyers will get hit simply by twin linking the weapons again with a Farseer or a Commander.

Its 38 points sure, but its 38 points that is going to be very versatile and can win you games. Only certain units like a Riptide are a problem, and that's mostly because of the JsJ rather than the 2+ armor.

Going second 50% of the time is not quite right. Among other things you can alter your rolls to see who goes first or seizes, you can (as an eldar player) have a 2+ to seize if you really want too. If you are worried about going first one Selection of Void Shields can protect any flyers who enter their territory or you can fly them behind LOS blocking terrain or behind terrain that provides a nice save like a Ruin or a Landing Pad.

Really you have a lot of options, but worrying over one T7 2W model or one Stalker, or a TAC squad with Flakk shouldn't prevent you from taking some Hunters as Dark Reapers handle nearly everything. Heck with Tank Hunters you can even bring down a AV 14 building fairly reliably with 9-11 Krak Missiles (twin linking of course)

The Eldar, more than any other army, should not only look at the output of each unit individually, but the synergy of multiple units together and their role in the force as a whole. - Fable

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post #26 of 42 (permalink) Old 01-22-14, 05:18 PM
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No.

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Last edited by MidnightSun; 01-22-14 at 05:19 PM. Reason: Too offensive.
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post #27 of 42 (permalink) Old 01-22-14, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by MidnightSun View Post
Maybe?
Well grab 9-11 dice, roll them once, then roll any non 6's once again. If you like you can shoot the building before hand with a lance or something to improve your odds.

Edit: I say 9 because I like to take my aspect squads in 8 man units and in the above squad 9 shots would include Fast Shot, 11 would be if you took 10 Models (that's really expensive though)

The Eldar, more than any other army, should not only look at the output of each unit individually, but the synergy of multiple units together and their role in the force as a whole. - Fable


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post #28 of 42 (permalink) Old 01-22-14, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
The Str 8 handles everything your talking about, points cost or no.
Well gee, a squadron of Russes would handle all of it as well, it doesn't mean it's efficient or good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
With a Farseer and Perfect Timing
So a 100pt model rolling 3 times for a 1-in-6 chance, attached to an 8 man unit costing 300pts plus Exarch plus toys, plus any fortifications you might have bought for them to camp in? Reliable? No. Points effective? Hell no.

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Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
or a Tau Commander and a Sensor Suite you can kill Quad guns and their like without any resistance
More reliable than the Farseer, but 105pts (assuming no other systems or weapons) and requires you to ally in Tau.

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Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
most other AA options are AV 10 or AV 11 meaning Str 8 will punch through it.
What other AA options? How many are going to be in range and LoS of the Reapers? How many of your Reapers are going to be alive?

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Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
Even other Flyers will get hit simply by twin linking the weapons again with a Farseer or a Commander.
Only if you have a large unit of Reapers. A unit of 3 only inflicts a single hit on average when Twin Linked, so a unit of 6 averages two hits or so, with negligible AP values against AV12/11 vehicles with 2-4 HPs.

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Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
Its 38 points sure, but its 38 points that is going to be very versatile and can win you games.
If your opponent can't handle >10 models that cost over 400pts for T3 and a 3+ for protection, they're shit opponents. Sorry.

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Only certain units like a Riptide are a problem, and that's mostly because of the JsJ rather than the 2+ armor.
Are you joking? 10 S8 shots nets you 7 hits without twin linking, 6 wounds, and 1 failed save. A Riptide can tank that shit all day in the open while blasting back with BS5 cover ignoring pie plates of AP2 death. And that's only a 185pt model versus your 300pts.

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Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
Going second 50% of the time is not quite right. Among other things you can alter your rolls to see who goes first or seizes, you can (as an eldar player) have a 2+ to seize if you really want too. If you are worried about going first one Selection of Void Shields can protect any flyers who enter their territory or you can fly them behind LOS blocking terrain or behind terrain that provides a nice save like a Ruin or a Landing Pad.
If you spend even MORE points just to alter that dice roll, or ally in even more armies completely unrelated. Void Shields apply IF you're playing Escalation (I don't know anyone who does, certainly most tournaments won't). Ruins are certainly a useful thing to be behind, but you can't always guarantee there will be some on the table tall enough to matter, you're sacrificing your own fire arcs to do so, and restricting your own movement phases.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
Really you have a lot of options, but worrying over one T7 2W model or one Stalker, or a TAC squad with Flakk shouldn't prevent you from taking some Hunters as Dark Reapers handle nearly everything. Heck with Tank Hunters you can even bring down a AV 14 building fairly reliably with 9-11 Krak Missiles (twin linking of course)
If a unit that statistically loses a near 40pt model for roughly every 6 boltguns that are fired at it (not even 6 hits, 6 SHOTS) is handling "nearly everything" then you really need to get out and play more opponents. Like, really. They don't even have Interceptor, so the first Heldrake you come across is going to wipe 75% of your unit out on the first pass.

Bear in mind that all of this is in defence of a 160pt Flyer with AV10 and 2HP that only puts out 4 S8 AP2 shots. You can take a Falcon with a Bright Lance (one of the most choices in the codex) for cheaper, it shoots from T1, and has a 3+ save behind a ruin or 4+ in the open, AV12 and 3HP, and can transport a scoring unit. You can take Hornets from FW that have paired Pulse Lasers for sub-100pts per model in squadrons.

90% of people think they are above average.

Statistically Improbable. Psychologically Inevitable.
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post #29 of 42 (permalink) Old 01-22-14, 06:15 PM
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Such hostility Sethis, much Wow.

I don't have time to reply in depth atm, ill try and check in tomorrow morning with some answers for you.

The Eldar, more than any other army, should not only look at the output of each unit individually, but the synergy of multiple units together and their role in the force as a whole. - Fable

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post #30 of 42 (permalink) Old 01-22-14, 06:40 PM
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Hostility?

Point out to me where I've insulted you in any way, and I'll sincerely apologise.

I think I insulted the caliber of your opponents twice, but not you!

Oh, and I also rather thoroughly panned Dark Reapers, but I hope you won't take that personally.

90% of people think they are above average.

Statistically Improbable. Psychologically Inevitable.
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