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post #1 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-11-13, 10:08 AM Thread Starter
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Default Assault is dead? (from BoLS)

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2013/...ad-in-40k.html

Just wanted to share this article from BoLS. Nice read, for me.

I do feel too that assault has been shunned away with too much emphasys, in this 6th edition. As for me, i never leave home without my assault specialist. Assault is not just crushing enemyes: its about contesting objectives and disturb shooting.

What do you guys think about assault?

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post #2 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-11-13, 12:38 PM
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By all accounts its not the crushing blow that it apparently was in 5th, but coming into 40k from a WHFB background I still see it as being a large part of the game. If I can wipe out or pin a SCORING unit in place thats one less objective grabber.
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post #3 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-11-13, 12:51 PM
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I don't think there's any arguing that shooting got stronger. But one if the benefits of close combat hasn't changed.

In close combat, I still have potentially twice the number of opportunities to kill the enemy. I can kill them in my assault phase, and in their assault phase.

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post #4 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-11-13, 01:48 PM
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I don't think there's any arguing that shooting got stronger. But one if the benefits of close combat hasn't changed.

In close combat, I still have potentially twice the number of opportunities to kill the enemy. I can kill them in my assault phase, and in their assault phase.
Yea, people seem to forget this. Rapid fire weapons are good but getting to shoot, charge and attack twice before your next turn comes around has its benefits too, and a unit leader with a power fist charging could deal out seven S8 attacks in one game turn, which is more than the guy with the missile launcher will do. More than a unit of long fangs will do for that matter
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post #5 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-11-13, 02:49 PM Thread Starter
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Yea, people seem to forget this. Rapid fire weapons are good but getting to shoot, charge and attack twice before your next turn comes around has its benefits too, and a unit leader with a power fist charging could deal out seven S8 attacks in one game turn, which is more than the guy with the missile launcher will do. More than a unit of long fangs will do for that matter
very much agree. The real pain for a former assault fanboy as myself is made by some of the new shenanigans the shooty armyes are getting to boost their "reactive" shooting: against charges and against deepstrikers or outflankers. Where this kind of tools where seldom seen past years, the Tau (may the gods bless them with spawnhood) have now become pretty much a bag-full of this kind of tricks and i can see how things are going to be even "worse" when the new IG codex is going to hit the board. Mind you, i'm not ranting. I'm just saying that in my opinion, assault have been nerfed a little, and on the other hand reactive shooting (or shooting in general) has been upgraded and made stronger.
I no longer see hand to hand as a central part of the game. now it has become an aspect. a facet between others. Wich may even be a good thing... for the sake of me, i cannot really well remember how was the game in 2nd edition, but in 3rd i recall there was a lot more hack and slash than 4th-5th and now 6th. or am I wrong?
maybe there is an "intelligent design" in GW's plan: making WHFB the realm of swords and WH40K the realm of bolters?

Besides. Have you ever tried to field a fully cc army? how does it fared under the new rules? Every time i try to make a full cc list my brain just screams in anger and forces me to add some long range heavy support...

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post #6 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-11-13, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kreuger View Post
I don't think there's any arguing that shooting got stronger. But one if the benefits of close combat hasn't changed.

In close combat, I still have potentially twice the number of opportunities to kill the enemy. I can kill them in my assault phase, and in their assault phase.
Plus you can kill a few models then destroy the unit in a sweeping advance. That's a pretty massive advantage, and something shooting is incapable of.

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post #7 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-11-13, 03:10 PM
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Mind you, i'm not ranting. I'm just saying that in my opinion, assault have been nerfed a little, and on the other hand reactive shooting (or shooting in general) has been upgraded and made stronger.
This is by design. CC was different in 2ed it was basically a large scale skirmish game. With the change from 2ed to 3ed, where the game design was based around large unit battles like WHFB (and unit standardization), assault became the center of the game (most likely unintentionally). It has taken 3 more editions of the game to finally tone assault down, but I think now that shooting and assaulting are fairly well balanced. Shooting is easier and more predictable (from a Mathhammer perspective). Assault, while harder to get into, is riskier but has higher rewards.

The only thing in the general Meta right now that is making shooting seem far more powerful is that the general meta (and the tournament scene specifically) have not also adjusted to the higher terrain density that is recommended and encouraged by the rules. Just upping the terrain count by 2-3 pieces and adding a LoS blocking piece or two changes the game for shooting units considerably.

I run a heavy CC Eldar army and am competitive against any army I have faced. What I don't do is rely on CC to be my only tool, I support it with Long Range Fire support, disruption units, and a mix of very fast and moderately fast units that attract fire until the Hammer falls. Which is what I would recommend for any "all-comers" army list.

One of the best ways to deal with fragile, firepower heavy armies (Tau and IG) is to beat their face in with a stick (the other is large cover ignoring template weapons).

Assault isn't "dead", the Khorne Berzerkers riding forward in a wall of rhinos (or insert any scouting, outflanking, or deep striking assault unit) and launching into assault with no risk is dead and that is a good thing.

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post #8 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-11-13, 04:33 PM
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The enemy can't hurt you back when you're shooting at them, and you can disable portions of their army in the crucial first few turns. Assault takes time to initiate, which gives your opponent options in howe he redeploys to deal with it. Shooting punishes deployment mistakes, removes the deadliest units without engaging them, and is generally superior.

You can win games through shooting, but assault? Not so much. You will almost always come up against someone who's better at you in assault unless you're a maxed out unit of Wraiths or Paladins with attached Draigo and Librarian or something silly like that. If you come across Draigowing with your close combat army, you're in trouble, because you have to deal with them when they're strongest and they remove your strengths through Grenades. If you're a shooting army, you can generally deal with them in short order. The reverse is not true for the opposite scenario, however; you can't deal with a powerful shooting unit through combat just because it's combat (of course, you can technically deal with anything in combat if you're packing 30 Deathwing Knights or something, but I'm talking efficiency/practicality here) - your best chance of taking down a Riptide is not through charging it, because it's tough, could beat you, and it'll kill what you throw at it while running away like the giant cowardly Tau it is. You have to shoot it, or throw very expendable units at it to force it into either poor target priority or combat.

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post #9 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-11-13, 06:32 PM
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In the article it says that there's two main changes to the assault phase, being Overwatch and random charge ranges. I would add that CCWs have AP values was another massive change. No longer can any old power weapon cleave down your 2+ armour save unit.

Being a BA player I definitely felt the shift in potency of the assault phase. My lists changed, but still remain highly CC oriented because that's where the strength of the BA lies. I have implemented different sorts of backline options for them, most of which have been successful, but still the majority of my army is made for charging in. I typically face Necrons, Tau, CSM, and IG and still come out on top focusing on getting my guys up in the enemy's face off the hop much like the boxing in tactic they describe in the article. The assault phase is still viable for game changing fun, but it's in a different faculty from before. It's a bit less point and shoot () than in 5th edition for sure.

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post #10 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-11-13, 07:02 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by iamtheeviltwin View Post
The only thing in the general Meta right now that is making shooting seem far more powerful is that the general meta (and the tournament scene specifically) have not also adjusted to the higher terrain density that is recommended and encouraged by the rules. Just upping the terrain count by 2-3 pieces and adding a LoS blocking piece or two changes the game for shooting units considerably.
THIS. Crap, I've never clearly understood how much this was a huge problem, not only in competitive enviroment but also in friendly games, until recen times. A battle is seriously influenced by the board composition. In a "shooty" edition like 6th the board should very well be far different from the set-ups we used to see in older edition battlefields (lots of cover on the board edges and a big white space in the middle...in my experience at least). The "build a story" thing would really help us here, placing terrain with our opponent to set up a narrative battlefield, where every army can have its sweet spot.
Good point, man.

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In the article it says that there's two main changes to the assault phase, being Overwatch and random charge ranges. I would add that CCWs have AP values was another massive change. No longer can any old power weapon cleave down your 2+ armour save unit.
And that, imo, is a very good point in favour of specialized and tough cc units (*cough* terminators *cough*) They are now just stronger, due to the fact that, as you say, a simple powersword cannot mow them down like pretty flowers. my idea is that what makes your cc units harder to quash, also helps the assault phase outcome. So, maybe we are going to use a more specialized tool for cc and not just every unit

Love the good points all of you guys have brought up!

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