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post #11 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-11-13, 08:35 PM
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I would add that CCWs have AP values was another massive change. No longer can any old power weapon cleave down your 2+ armour save unit.
What?

Oh, wait, yes, I'd forgotten the lesser races are using AP values. Silly little cattle.

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post #12 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-11-13, 08:45 PM
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I'd forgotten the lesser races are using AP values
....I don't even know what this means. What army doesn't have AP values for CCWs?

Unfortunately Canada got rid of the penny and now my two cents rounds down to zero, so...take it for what you will.

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post #13 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-11-13, 09:24 PM
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....I don't even know what this means. What army doesn't have AP values for CCWs?
Dark Eldar are either 'Ignore Armour Saves' or AP2. Oh, yeah, they get Agonisers as well, but all the important stuff is still Ignores Armour (Klaives, Demiklaives, Huskblades, Lelith Hesperax off the top of my head).

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post #14 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-11-13, 10:06 PM
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Guess I gotta learn me some different armies, eh? I think DE are the ones I have the least to do with in all reality. Thanks for clearing that up for me!

Unfortunately Canada got rid of the penny and now my two cents rounds down to zero, so...take it for what you will.

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post #15 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-11-13, 10:55 PM
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Just found this. I think it's pretty good.

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post #16 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-12-13, 04:26 AM
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I feel like the higher emphasis on shooting has really solidified for me the perception of 40k being a WW1 styled-game.

Really, the evidence is there and more importantly, the game and cultural styles of some of the races, (IG, Tau, and Orks in particular) not to mention the looks of some vehicles brings the idea of WW1 era weapons and armor.

On a separate note, I have switched from Chaos to Tau mainly for this reason. I used to play Chaos (unsuccessfully) and now I'm switching to Tau and have seen much greater success. Mainly thanks to them fitting into my play style and what not.
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post #17 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-12-13, 08:39 AM
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Another benefit of CC is hiding your expensive units in combat. A shooty unit can be shot by anything, but reach combat and you can be more selective over who hits back. Shooting units can certainly use line of sight blocking terrain to limit what comes their way, but if there's enough terrain then the balance between shooting and combat is already being balanced.

I understand there was a high level (?) US tournament recently where the top three armies were daemons, daemons then tyranids. IIRC Tau (despite their codex) didn't fare as well as expected because the tables were well covered with terrain

Just found the article. Tau's highest ranking was 10th

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2013/...-40k-meta.html

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The enemy can't hurt you back when you're shooting at them, and you can disable portions of their army in the crucial first few turns. Assault takes time to initiate, which gives your opponent options in howe he redeploys to deal with it. Shooting punishes deployment mistakes, removes the deadliest units without engaging them, and is generally superior.

You can win games through shooting, but assault? Not so much. You will almost always come up against someone who's better at you in assault unless you're a maxed out unit of Wraiths or Paladins with attached Draigo and Librarian or something silly like that. If you come across Draigowing with your close combat army, you're in trouble, because you have to deal with them when they're strongest and they remove your strengths through Grenades. If you're a shooting army, you can generally deal with them in short order. The reverse is not true for the opposite scenario, however; you can't deal with a powerful shooting unit through combat just because it's combat (of course, you can technically deal with anything in combat if you're packing 30 Deathwing Knights or something, but I'm talking efficiency/practicality here) - your best chance of taking down a Riptide is not through charging it, because it's tough, could beat you, and it'll kill what you throw at it while running away like the giant cowardly Tau it is. You have to shoot it, or throw very expendable units at it to force it into either poor target priority or combat.

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I would have thought the most efficient way of dealing with a riptide is getting something with an ID causing weapon into combat with it. Easier said than done, but with shooting you'd have to hammer away for a long time with multiple units. Maybe I'm looking at it too much from my nid perspective, but for me I'd try to charge it with my flyrant asap. That's quite a specific case because my hive tyrant is kitted out unusually (wings, 2x scything talons, toxin sacs, implant attack) but you could do the same thing with a bloodthirster too. Or a great unclean one if you can catch it. ID aside pretty much any CC monstrous creature could hack it to death without shooting support (avatar, keeper of secrets, daemon prince, wraithknight, trygon, CC tervigon etc)

Other good ways would involve massed poison or rending attacks
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post #18 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-12-13, 09:59 AM Thread Starter
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Just found this. I think it's pretty good.

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That is a very clever article. The 5+ cover save is another serious point in favor of "shooting wins"

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post #19 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-12-13, 08:44 PM
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The AP-component in CC in 6th is really something you have to consider when making your list. Although i havent played them in 6th i think Eldar might be capable of more than most people think. Like the DE they have some interesting AP2-upgrades for Exarchs, and unlike most armys, these weapons wont strike at initiative 1 (Scorpionclaw, Executionerblade and the sword for the Dire Avenger Exarch which causes ID).

I have to try that for myself, but in my head that sounds not at all a bad idea.
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post #20 of 26 (permalink) Old 10-13-13, 08:51 AM
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This editions rules for combat definately made the footslogging horde of orks a lot less reliable, with the change to fleet shafting the waaagh being the main culprit although lower cover saves,defensive flamers and a few other bit's luckily there are a few other things in the book that makes up for it and ork defensive fire is not much different from their normal shooting so it's not all bad but for an army that was mainly designed from both fluff and game mechanics to be a combat force this is not the edition for orks.

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