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post #1 of 84 (permalink) Old 06-23-08, 02:23 PM Thread Starter
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Default 5th edition for close combat armies?

i recently played a game of 5th using the store copy against a friends ig army and it seemed like cc armies have been nerfed in 5th. of course looking back at the game the curse of the dice gods was upon me. i failed more than 80% of my armor saves(3+) including rolling 5 1's for my oblit's anyway my whole main problem was the not being able to consolidate into units, which meant that my beserkers rolled through one squad, then got shot by every gun on the field. does anyone have thoughts on tactics for cc armies in 5th?

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post #2 of 84 (permalink) Old 06-23-08, 02:48 PM
 
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CC armies have been nerfed a bit and rightly so. Now, if you want to assault, you'll need to assault as many units as possible with as many units as possible in order to limit incoming fire if you should happen to massacre.

Also, keep in mind that even though the defender gets a defensive "pile in" before the assault resolves in order to get as many models into combat as possible; if he loses he will be taking a leadership test at -1 per point that their side lose the combat by, rather than the old way.

So if you are going into melee, you'd better be going up against something you can wade through or you'll be getting hammered. Keep in mind, if you lose a combat and have fearless models you won't make the check, rather you'll just take one additional wound, no save allowed, for every point you lose combat by.

Personally, I love the changes. I think they will make the game much more fun for all factions..
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post #3 of 84 (permalink) Old 06-23-08, 08:09 PM
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normal space marines that lose combat and flee, if they pass initiative they fall back for one turn then automatically regroup thier next turn. If they fail thier initiative test, they take no wounds and just continue to fight as normal. if they lose an extra wound for every casualty with no armor saves, thats like giving free powerfists to any army, some armies cant even get that stuff to begin with, they should at least get thier armor save otherwise its like guaranteed double wounds. are you sure there is no saves alowed?

fearless space marines have no possibility of not taking those wounds.

I used to lose bad and often to eldar in combat, now I will simply lose every time.
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post #4 of 84 (permalink) Old 06-23-08, 08:27 PM
 
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Even though CC armies are at a disadvantage for not being able to consolidate into combat this is effected by the fact that like in 7th ed WHFB (5 to a rank) more empthasis has been put on troop choices and having bigger armies. So in 5th ed your army will probably include more troop choices anyway so you will hit more units the turn you charge. Plus this can be done quicker due to the run rule. With the extra units you need to hit the enemy so they can't hurt you back so hard.

While the auto wounds will hurt SM they first have to fail their LD with high values. Also SM are still quite tough and they will have to take the wounds in combat in the first place.

I agree with Loki that the new changes to the game will be great. They make the game much more fun to play. Plus it reduces the amount of really cheesy tourny armies. Another point is that the rules encourage you to go forward and fight the enemy and capture objectives. Lastly I like that there are scenarios like LotR. It gives the game much more character.

Last edited by weasly; 06-23-08 at 08:33 PM.
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post #5 of 84 (permalink) Old 06-23-08, 08:37 PM
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If you want a CC army to tie up a shoot army like tau or IG, Just get a big squad of bikers with an Icon to turbo boost 24 inches. Then you deep strike your terminators, squads of lesser daemons, greater daemon, raptors, obliterators and your daemons will assult on the same turn. Meanwhile your berzerkers in the rhino can move up in the distraction. Use the obliterators to destroy those basilisks or leman russes and you're good.

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post #6 of 84 (permalink) Old 06-23-08, 08:43 PM
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Some of the changes, especially this one, suck to the extreme.
I can see people not playing close combat armies at all in the very near future.
An automatic wound per point you "lose" close combat by?
You can't sweeping advance anymore?
Sounds like GW has started catering to non-tactical whiners.
For instance, if I have 10 Khorne Berzerkers and charge into, what 30 IG, and kill 15 of them, and they don't do a blessed thing to me, I still lose all of my models due to being "outnumbered".
Retarded.

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post #7 of 84 (permalink) Old 06-23-08, 10:02 PM
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No you don't - you can take a maximum number of additional wounds equal to the number inflicted on you in the round you lost, so if the IG didn't hurt your 'Zerkers at all, then you can't lose any models even if you somehow managed to lose the combat. Anyway, as far as I understand it, you won your hypothetical combat there - you get fifteen points for killing fifteen opponents; the IG get five points for outnumbering you by five. You won by ten, which means they get a Ld test which they can't possibly pass, so they break and flee.

Then your 'Zerkers stand there picking their noses with another platoon two inches away, and get blown to tiny bits by a volley from a Leman Russ battery.

But that's another issue altogether.

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post #8 of 84 (permalink) Old 06-23-08, 10:13 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vrykolas2k View Post
Some of the changes, especially this one, suck to the extreme.
I can see people not playing close combat armies at all in the very near future.
An automatic wound per point you "lose" close combat by?
You can't sweeping advance anymore?
Sounds like GW has started catering to non-tactical whiners.
For instance, if I have 10 Khorne Berzerkers and charge into, what 30 IG, and kill 15 of them, and they don't do a blessed thing to me, I still lose all of my models due to being "outnumbered".
Retarded.
Not so much.Combat resolution no longer is calculated by outnumbered, etc....

It's now just wounds inflicted vs wounds taken.

So if you have 10 berzerkers vs 30 IG, and you kill 15 to their none, congrats - you just won combat by 15. They now make a leadership test at -15 or flee.
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post #9 of 84 (permalink) Old 06-23-08, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weasly View Post
While the auto wounds will hurt SM they first have to fail their LD with high values. Also SM are still quite tough and they will have to take the wounds in combat in the first place.
fearless in CC essentially means you autofail their morale check, and autopass thier initiative. But because of No Retreat you take the difference in wounds again.

whereas a group of tau that pass their morale check don't take any wounds at all. not that they are likely to pass, but it can and does happen.

I guess that there is just no clear failure, and no clear success with the space marines. and you are paying extra points for that fearlessness, so it shouldn't cause you to automatically take more wounds. you should autopass the morale, but have to take th inititive test to avoid taking the wounds (although you wouldn't be escaping if you pass)
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post #10 of 84 (permalink) Old 06-23-08, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inquisitor Aurelius View Post
No you don't - you can take a maximum number of additional wounds equal to the number inflicted on you in the round you lost, so if the IG didn't hurt your 'Zerkers at all, then you can't lose any models even if you somehow managed to lose the combat. Anyway, as far as I understand it, you won your hypothetical combat there - you get fifteen points for killing fifteen opponents; the IG get five points for outnumbering you by five. You won by ten, which means they get a Ld test which they can't possibly pass, so they break and flee.

Then your 'Zerkers stand there picking their noses with another platoon two inches away, and get blown to tiny bits by a volley from a Leman Russ battery.

But that's another issue altogether.

Ah, I see... so they've replaced one half-wit rule with another...
That makes sense, or something...

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