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post #1 of 7 (permalink) Old 02-13-13, 09:15 PM Thread Starter
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Default Which Heavy Support?

Hi guys,

So i'm in the process of trying different builds in a DA list and one of my puzzlement is what sort of heavy support choice to use.
I rulled out the LSV (to fragile for and not enough range) and the Preds (because i don't have the models).
LR i think are to much points in one basket and are there to effectively transport a DW or DWK squad to the heat of battle.
So in the list i'm running which is a Ravenwing heavy list (Sammy, Libby on bike lvl2 divination, 2x6 RAS, 2x3 RAS, 6 RBK, LS Darkshroud, 3x LS Typhoon as a squadron , 9x Tactical with ML flakk+ Rhino) i have a spot for 2 heavy choices.
Either 2x5 Devastators with 3 LC each or 2 Vindicators.

I really lean towards the Devs (using them also as snap firing squads vs flyers) but i can not decide 100% because i dream of those Vindis firing their St10 AP2 large blast on all those infantry blobs or Termies and i sleep with a wide smile on my face.

What do you think?
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post #2 of 7 (permalink) Old 02-13-13, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellipe View Post
So in the list i'm running which is a Ravenwing heavy list (Sammy, Libby on bike lvl2 divination, 2x6 RAS, 2x3 RAS, 6 RBK, LS Darkshroud, 3x LS Typhoon as a squadron , 9x Tactical with ML flakk+ Rhino) i have a spot for 2 heavy choices.
Either 2x5 Devastators with 3 LC each or 2 Vindicators.

I really lean towards the Devs (using them also as snap firing squads vs flyers) but i can not decide 100% because i dream of those Vindis firing their St10 AP2 large blast on all those infantry blobs or Termies and i sleep with a wide smile on my face.

What do you think?
I'd say 2 squads of Devastators with Missile Launchers and Flak Missiles. Against a Heldrake, this list will keel over and die a horrible death and seeing as they're on the rise, you need to be able to deal with them. Personally I'd screw the Tacticals as well and take more Bikes, but that's preference.

Against infantry hordes, you can do just as much damage with Frag Missiles as with a Demolisher Cannon, and against Terminators you have Ravenwing Black Knights. The only Terminator unit that won't vapourise in front of them is 10 Paladins, but even then you can do significant damage to them with the Black Knights before piling on armour saves with Frag Missiles/Bolters.

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post #3 of 7 (permalink) Old 02-13-13, 09:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellipe View Post
I ruled out the LSV (too fragile for and not enough range)
I think you're missing a trick here. Because it's a Fast Skimmer, you can move and shoot, so really you do have quite good range. More to the point, I doubt you could find similar anti-elite firepower anywhere else for the same deal. That said, I do understand that it is a lot to pay for what is a very fragile unit.

and the Preds (because i don't have the models).
This would be your best bet IMO. Autocannons are godlike, and this is your cheapest platform for them.

LR i think are to much points in one basket and are there to effectively transport a DW or DWK squad to the heat of battle.
Agreed. And even then, you don't really need one in a DW list anyway.

So in the list i'm running which is a Ravenwing heavy list (Sammy, Libby on bike lvl2 divination, 2x6 RAS, 2x3 RAS, 6 RBK, LS Darkshroud, 3x LS Typhoon as a squadron , 9x Tactical with ML flakk+ Rhino) i have a spot for 2 heavy choices.
Looks quite good. Personally, I'd either drop the Tactical to 5 models, or bump it up to 10, as 9 is just a waste of points really. Extra bolters are useless.

Either 2x5 Devastators with 3 LC each or 2 Vindicators.
Ah. Let me introduce you to one of my personal rules for 40k. Melta and Missiles are for Marines, Lascannons are for Lesser men (i.e. Guard). Seriously, we pay through the nose for something that has no instant-death bonuses over a ML, has a minor AP upgrade, and no secondary fire option. We can't spam them in the same numbers as Guard, even if we have better accuracy. On the other hand, Missile Launchers are infinitely more flexible, especially with Flakk missiles, and have relatively few drawbacks.

The Vindicators are nice on paper, but I find they don't quite deliver a lot of the time. That said, I think they synergise quite well with your army, as they provide close range support which is what a Ravenwing list is all about.


I really lean towards the Devs (using them also as snap firing squads vs flyers) but i can not decide 100% because i dream of those Vindis firing their St10 AP2 large blast on all those infantry blobs or Termies and i sleep with a wide smile on my face.

Why snap fire lascannons when you can use Flakk missiles? It just kinda proves my point. But as I mentioned, the Vindies would work quite well here.
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post #4 of 7 (permalink) Old 02-13-13, 10:12 PM
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What about a Whirlwind? Against Guard, orks, eldar, Tau (Basically anything not in power armour) they can be devastating

2 devastator squads with flak work well, they are versatile to deal with most threats and work really well with divination psykers

I have a unit of las-devastators for my blood ravens and never use them, with hull points missiles are just better in every way
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post #5 of 7 (permalink) Old 02-13-13, 10:39 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for your replies.
This is my thinking on LC vs ML+flakk. This may require a little mathammer so if anyone can do it please help.
When you shoot with 3 ML+ flakk i think you are just going for a "glance to death" result against AV12 (the biggest threat being the Helldrake, which is the bane in my local club, seeing lists with 2 almost in every game i play against CSM) since you will need 5's to glance and 6's to penetrate. With the 3 LC you have an ultimate anti-tank weapon and although snap firing against flyers you will benefit more from the 3+ for glancing , 4+ for penetration and don't forget the AP2 rule on the damage table roll, once you score a hit.
Am i dreaming and are my math so worse (actually i suck at math).
So what will the dice gods decide?
Also don't forget that my list (i will post it correct and for judgement in the Army lists section) wants something to synergies with the 3 LS Typhoons (they also can snap fire with 6 S8 shots)

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(I'm looking forward for your updated DA tactics analysis)
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post #6 of 7 (permalink) Old 02-13-13, 10:47 PM
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OK, so say you have 2x 5 man Devvie squads with 4 Flakk missiles apiece:

8 shots, 66.7% hit = 5.3 hits.
5 hits, 16.7% pen = 0.89 pens, plus 0.89 glances.

Not including Jink.

Then your 4x Lascannons:

4 Shots at 66.7% hits = 2.67 hits
2.67 hits pen at 33.3% = 0.89 pens, plus 0.44 glances.

Yes you do get that +1 from the AP2, but I'd rather take my chances with the Flakks if they're going to be jinking another third of your pens.

And yes, the breakdown is still a WIP - I'll hopefully have it complete by the end of next week.

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post #7 of 7 (permalink) Old 02-13-13, 11:24 PM
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Maths is a off there as shooting at flyers is snap without flakk

A lascannon at a heldrake has a 16.7% chance of a hit so you get 0.67 hits rather than 2.67
So 0.22 Pens plus 0.11 glances

Flakk missiles will therefore do twice as much to the drake

Honestly I'd rather at least glance a couple of times rather than do nothing and miss. Lascannons are fantastic against Russ's and Landraiders but not accurate enough to take down flyers. If you hit with your las you will likely down the flyer but you have to be lucky.

Its not as bad if your Orks or guard as you have tonnes of heavy guns but marines need to maximise their high BS. I know out of either flak or lascannons which unit I'd prioritise to Baleflame.

Missiles are also far more versatile once the flyers are gone as they are effective against infantry as well

Last edited by Barnster; 02-13-13 at 11:53 PM.
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