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post #1 of 21 (permalink) Old 02-09-13, 06:56 PM Thread Starter
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Default Terminating Troublesome Traitors

The following things have really been bugging my Dark Angels:

1. Heldrake with Baleflamer. I can stay in my Rhinos, in which case I can't shoot properly and my Devastators die, or I can disembark, in which case it Vector Strikes, killing 2 or 3, and the Flames the remnants, killing a huge number. As an AV12 Flyer, it's very difficult to put down.

2. 20 Cultists. Autoguns and a Heavy Stubber, sat in a piece of 4+ cover. I cannot apply enough firepower or get close enough to charge. They shrug off the scant firepower I send their way and 9 times out of 10, capture an objective.

3. CSM with Mark of Slaanesh and Icon of Excess. They almost ignore boltguns, and 1/3 of Plasma shots you send their way come off the invulnerable (added to 1/3 missing, that's a large decrease in firepower). In combat, they strike before Tacticals and with more punch.

4. 3 Nurgle Obliterators in seperate squads. Very difficult to get rid of before they kill a Terminator squad or expensive vehicle.

5. Daemon Prince with Sigil of Corruption, Wings, and Mark of Tzeentch. Flying with a 3+ Invulnerable re-rolling 1s is pretty damn tough. Today it charged a squad of Deathwing, before being charged by another squad. It ate both squads at the cost of 3 wounds.

My models:
Chaplain in Terminator Armour
Azrael
Chaplain in Power Armour (old Asmodai)
2 Company Masters
2 Librarians in Power Armour, and 1 in Terminator Armour (1 can proxy as Azrael)
Drop Pod
4 Rhinos (one can be swapped out as Razorback)
30 Tactical Marines with 2 Plasma Cannons, 3 Plasma Guns (one can swap out for Melta or Flamer), Missile Launcher, Multi-Melta (can stand in as Veterans, Command Squad etc. - have a Banner Bearer too)
15 Deathwing Terminators (3 Sergeants, 2 Assault Cannons, Cyclone, 3 Chainfists)
5 Devastators with Missile Launchers
Predator with Lascannon sponsons
Vindicator
15 Scouts (8 Boltguns, 2 Heavy Bolters, 5 Sniper Rifles)
3 Ravenwing Bikers

ALLIES:
38-ish Guardsmen with Standard, 5 Vox-Casters, Meltagun, Plasma Gun, 4 Flamers, Heavy Weapon Team with Heavy Bolter, 3 Sergeants
Griffon
2 LRBTs with Heavy Bolter Sponsons and Hull, have got the sprue for the other sponson weapons.
Marbo
9 Kasrkins with a Meltagun (can stand in as Veterans with Carapace Armour, one has a Vox)

Usually play at 2000pts, occasionally going up to 2500 or 3000.

Any ideas? I have a decent enough budget, so if more shinies are required, so be it!

Midnight

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Last edited by MidnightSun; 02-09-13 at 07:03 PM.
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post #2 of 21 (permalink) Old 02-09-13, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by MidnightSun View Post
1. Heldrake with Baleflamer. I can stay in my Rhinos, in which case I can't shoot properly and my Devastators die, or I can disembark, in which case it Vector Strikes, killing 2 or 3, and the Flames the remnants, killing a huge number. As an AV12 Flyer, it's very difficult to put down.
Flakk missiles, and plenty of them. You can spam them quite easily thanks to Tactical Squads and scouts. This option is the deciding factor for me whether to get Missile Launchers or Plasma Cannons.

2. 20 Cultists. Autoguns and a Heavy Stubber, sat in a piece of 4+ cover. I cannot apply enough firepower or get close enough to charge. They shrug off the scant firepower I send their way and 9 times out of 10, capture an objective.
Ravenwing Land Speeders with Heavy Flamer, Attack Squadrons with flamers, Land Raider Redeemer. Essentially anything that ignores cover.

3. CSM with Mark of Slaanesh and Icon of Excess. They almost ignore boltguns, and 1/3 of Plasma shots you send their way come off the invulnerable (added to 1/3 missing, that's a large decrease in firepower). In combat, they strike before Tacticals and with more punch.

Deathwing. A simple squad with Power Fists or Thunder Hammer will send them packing. And you don't have to worry about initiative.

4. 3 Nurgle Obliterators in seperate squads. Very difficult to get rid of before they kill a Terminator squad or expensive vehicle.

Use DarkShroud(s) to cover your advance, while fast-moving Black Knights or plasma-toting Attack Squadrons isolate and eliminate them.

5. Daemon Prince with Sigil of Corruption, Wings, and Mark of Tzeentch. Flying with a 3+ Invulnerable re-rolling 1s is pretty damn tough. Today it charged a squad of Deathwing, before being charged by another squad. It ate both squads at the cost of 3 wounds.

Do they have Eternal Warrior? If not, a Librarian with Power Mace will work a treat. If so, then kite it at 24" with Ravenwing Bolters.
Bit of a rock-paper-scissors scenario here, so you'd probably have to select 2 or 3 of these at a time, as you probably won't be able to fit in all of them.

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Spanner's got some great advice as well... Listen to that wise man.

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post #3 of 21 (permalink) Old 02-09-13, 07:54 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the speedy reply. Do you rate the Redeemer? I think it might be a rather nice one, my regular opponent has a single lonely Meltagun, and then 3 Obliterators and occasionally a Termicide squad (oh, how 5th edition!).

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post #4 of 21 (permalink) Old 02-09-13, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by MidnightSun View Post
The following things have really been bugging my Dark Angels:

1. Heldrake with Baleflamer. I can stay in my Rhinos, in which case I can't shoot properly and my Devastators die, or I can disembark, in which case it Vector Strikes, killing 2 or 3, and the Flames the remnants, killing a huge number. As an AV12 Flyer, it's very difficult to put down.
Speaking as a CSM player, the Heldrake is a godsend for us. As one of the toughest fliers in the game and with a respectable damage output (tailored to killing MEQ), it's a great investment in points for us and a great way to soak up enemy firepower... and distract the enemy from shooting at our more fragile assault units.

Its "downside" is that it only has a moderate damage output. Okay, it really builds up over the turns, but it's not like many other fliers, with multiple large blast template missiles and about 4 other guns. You can ignore it if you don't want to devote the sizeable points chunk of your army that will be necessary to reliably take it out.

What to do about it if you want to kill it? Uh, ally in Imperial Guard in order to get a Vendetta/Hydra? Spend ~275 points on Devastators w/ flakk and a ADL with quad gun/icarus lascannon? There are few real easy counters, unfortunately. Or, from my point of view, I guess, fortunately. A Vendetta and a squad of devastators with flakk might be your best bet.

Quote:
2. 20 Cultists. Autoguns and a Heavy Stubber, sat in a piece of 4+ cover. I cannot apply enough firepower or get close enough to charge. They shrug off the scant firepower I send their way and 9 times out of 10, capture an objective.
One word: flamers. Or any templates that ignore cover, really--can DAs get Thunderfire Cannons? Alternatively, a combat squad of marines who charge them should be able to take them out, provided the Overwatch isn't that bad. Yeah, these involve getting close, which you say you're having trouble with. Could you make a flamer-Ravenwing squad, or something? Zoom in, torch most of them, then charge the survivors and mop em up...

Flamer Special Weapon Squad in a Chimera (or the aforementioned Vendetta!), if you're going the Guard alies route, should be able to mop em up with relative ease. Just don't disembark until you've killed most of them and don't attract the notion of some bigger chaos unit--wait a few turns until making a beeline for the cultists, when his nasty units are committed elsewhere, or something.

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3. CSM with Mark of Slaanesh and Icon of Excess. They almost ignore boltguns, and 1/3 of Plasma shots you send their way come off the invulnerable (added to 1/3 missing, that's a large decrease in firepower). In combat, they strike before Tacticals and with more punch.
Ummm, ally in Grey Knights with a Vindicare in order to snipe out the Icon Bearer? Hit 'em with a S8 AP3 battle cannon, somehow? (Vindicator, allied IG Russ). Meltas, if they hit, are basically an auto-kill.

Alternatively, and more realistically, tie them up with terminators. Their piddly I5 attacks will bounce off while your power fists will pulp them and you can laugh at the notion of "Feel No Pain".

Quote:
4. 3 Nurgle Obliterators in seperate squads. Very difficult to get rid of before they kill a Terminator squad or expensive vehicle.
Also very expensive--228 for those three models, who are essentially a lascannon and a plasma cannon every other turn, or some other decent stuff at close range. I'd say ignore 'em and focus on the important enemy squads first. You're probably gonna take some casualties from ignoring them, but that's all right.

If you have plasma in the area that doesn't have anything better to fire at, go ahead and wipe one of the Oblits off the map. Otherwise--not to high a priority, I think. They're tough but only put out a moderate amount of BS4 firepower--If I were playing against that, I'd be fine with living with that while I killed his scoring units and designated assault units.

Quote:
5. Daemon Prince with Sigil of Corruption, Wings, and Mark of Tzeentch. Flying with a 3+ Invulnerable re-rolling 1s is pretty damn tough. Today it charged a squad of Deathwing, before being charged by another squad. It ate both squads at the cost of 3 wounds.
First off, that Prince is illegal. The Sigil of Corruption is in the Special Issue Wargear section, and the Prince can only buy items in the Rewards and Artifacts sections. He can have a 4++ rerolling 1s, or he can have 3+ cover save evading with Nurgle--but only one of 'em.

Bolter fire, bolter fire and bolter fire. That combo certainly sounds nasty, but hey, you can't reroll rerolls. Force enough saves and he's going to fail some.

Use small units/skyfire units first, until you've knocked him out of the sky, then just let loose with massed bolter salvoes. If you have to sacrifice a small squad to bait the enemy Prince out of cover, it's a noble sacrifice, but worth it--then you can shred him with massed shooting. Make him feel the pain of that mere T5.

Also, a Librarian has a chance of taking him out. With Biomancy powers (Iron Arm, Warp Time) or Telepathy's Invisibility, there's a good chance he'll survive the Prince's first smash attack and have a chance to strike back with his force weapon. Still, that's something of a maaassive gamble, seeing as more likely than not, the Librarian will just get torn limb from limb. Still, they make me catch my breath whenever my Prince has to face off against one in a challenge.

Edit: Spanner's got some great advice as well, and it's more tailored to the DA specifically. Listen to that wise man.

CSM Plog, Tactica

What sphinx of plascrete and adamantium bashed open their skulls and ate up their brains and imagination? Imperator! Imperator!

Last edited by Mossy Toes; 02-09-13 at 08:56 PM.
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Originally Posted by MidnightSun View Post
Thanks for the speedy reply. Do you rate the Redeemer? I think it might be a rather nice one, my regular opponent has a single lonely Meltagun, and then 3 Obliterators and occasionally a Termicide squad (oh, how 5th edition!).

Midnight
The only issues I have with Land Raiders in general is they're single purpose (terminator transport), and tend to die to melta. However what you've said can only be good news - IMO this is the best standard variant of Land Raider, so I would say this is certainly an option. Obliterators aren't an issue provided they're not within 18", as I don't rate Lascannons for high AV tank hunting.

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Originally Posted by Mossy Toes View Post
Listen to that wise man.

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Originally Posted by Mossy Toes View Post
Spanner's got some great advice as well... Listen to that wise man.

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post #6 of 21 (permalink) Old 02-10-13, 11:17 AM
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Given that I reckon I know this certain player, I have had similar problems and feel your pain, mainly with the obliterators, have you tried focussing on the obliterators with your plasma fire, as you are then leaving him to save on 5++ which ismuch better, this is what I generally do against TeQ especially at T5. Or as Mossy says, try and ignore them unless they become a problem

Helldrake = Flakk, as much as you can, from as far away as possible, and the fact the helldrake has 360 fire now is also going to be a problem.

With the Deamon prince, I can't be much help as normally I just throw a c'tan or shackle lord at it, generally I would try to focus on grounding it as a S9 hit is nothing to be sniffed at and provided the helldrake isn't a problem, you could send Flakk missiles it's way, but with 4++ and that damned tzeentch deamon prince rule, no matte what it is always going to be a tough takedown. (I have to admit I am annoyed how much he has used a 3++) And most likely now he will end up taking power armour, so try to find something AP3 or better.

To deal with the slaanesh marines, I would either try and get some sniper unit (I though you had ratlings? Yes I know they are bad but it's better than nothing) or try and get into combat with 2 characters, so one can deal with/decline the challenge but you can still use the precision hits, however this is obviously much riskier.

With cultists, do the Leman russes not take them out? Otherwise I would just try to mass fire power.

Me: To be honest im amazed there isn't a chaos god of not revising or at least chaos god of procrastination

MidnightSun: There will be, when enough people do it. Y'know when the Eldar were all engaging in their hedonism and Slaanesh ripped open the Eye of Terror with his creation? Slaanesh will have NOTHING on the God of Procrastination, and his vile minions will carve the galaxy asunder in a thousand year reign of blood.... Tomorrow

Last edited by falcoso; 02-10-13 at 11:24 AM.
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post #7 of 21 (permalink) Old 02-10-13, 11:54 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by falcoso View Post
Given that I reckon I know this certain player, I have had similar problems and feel your pain, mainly with the obliterators, have you tried focussing on the obliterators with your plasma fire, as you are then leaving him to save on 5++ which ismuch better, this is what I generally do against TeQ especially at T5. Or as Mossy says, try and ignore them unless they become a problem
Yeah, the problem is getting the Plasma to them before they pop expensive, good stuff.

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Helldrake = Flakk, as much as you can, from as far away as possible, and the fact the helldrake has 360 fire now is also going to be a problem.
Flak is proving very difficult. I only have the 1 Devastator unit, and as anyone who's played a Heldrake before can tell you, 5 Marines isn't even a minor threat to one no matter what weapons they have. Flak missiles are also pretty awful. One third miss, two thirds of that bounce off armour, a third of that is Jinked, and half will get eaten by Daemonic Possession. Very, very difficult to shut down.

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Originally Posted by falcoso View Post
With the Deamon prince, I can't be much help as normally I just throw a c'tan or shackle lord at it, generally I would try to focus on grounding it as a S9 hit is nothing to be sniffed at and provided the helldrake isn't a problem, you could send Flakk missiles it's way, but with 4++ and that damned tzeentch deamon prince rule, no matte what it is always going to be a tough takedown. (I have to admit I am annoyed how much he has used a 3++) And most likely now he will end up taking power armour, so try to find something AP3 or better.
TL Storm Bolters (standard gear on Terminators now ) are up to the job of Grounding it, it was just the 3++ re-rollable or T6 that was an obstacle. We've now had words and hammered out that Nurgle Daemon Princes do not have the Mark of Nurgle, and Tzeentch Daemon Princes cannot take Sigils of Corruption.

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Originally Posted by falcoso View Post
To deal with the slaanesh marines, I would either try and get some sniper unit (I though you had ratlings? Yes I know they are bad but it's better than nothing) or try and get into combat with 2 characters, so one can deal with/decline the challenge but you can still use the precision hits, however this is obviously much riskier.
Ratlings are cool, but the chances of getting a Precision Shot that then wounds, goes through Power Armour AND Feel No Pain is minimal. Battle Cannons may be the answer, I just need to work on deploying them better.

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With cultists, do the Leman russes not take them out? Otherwise I would just try to mass fire power.
Nah, Battle Cannons bounce right off of 4+ cover. Deathwing Terminators could do the job, but that's a 245pt unit dedicated to killing the 160pts or so of Cultists.

Good ideas though, people, keep 'em coming.

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Last edited by MidnightSun; 02-12-13 at 09:36 PM.
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post #8 of 21 (permalink) Old 02-10-13, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by falcoso View Post
To deal with the slaanesh marines, I would either try and get some sniper unit (I though you had ratlings? Yes I know they are bad but it's better than nothing) or try and get into combat with 2 characters, so one can deal with/decline the challenge but you can still use the precision hits, however this is obviously much riskier.
I assume he could go with sniper scouts, as well. Or, if the opposing player keeps the icon bearer at the back of the unit, one could take Land Speeders (or bikes) and zoom them around the unit so that the icon bearer is the closest model, and the first model to die is said icon bearer. Then you unleash the plasma deluge and wipe out the squad.

Quote:
With cultists, do the Leman russes not take them out? Otherwise I would just try to mass fire power.
Not, I assume, when the cultists go to ground for a 3+ save against that Russ.

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Oops, missed Midnight's reply.

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We've now had words and hammered out that Nurgle Daemon Princes do not have the Mark of Nurgle, and Tzeentch Daemon Princes cannot take Sigils of Corruption.
Goooood, yes. He should be rather less of a thorn in your side, now. Unless your opponent starts fielding him with Biomancy powers, so he'll be regenerating wounds or getting +D3 S/T, etc.

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post #10 of 21 (permalink) Old 02-10-13, 07:26 PM Thread Starter
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Goooood, yes. He should be rather less of a thorn in your side, now. Unless your opponent starts fielding him with Biomancy powers, so he'll be regenerating wounds or getting +D3 S/T, etc.
The Tzeentch Prince does use Biomancy, but with only 1 roll (is it 1?) due to being forced to take a shitty Tzeentch power, it's not too troublesome. Iron Arm's the only scary one.

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