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post #21 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-04-13, 12:42 AM
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If a wound is allocated to him...like the rule says.
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post #22 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-04-13, 03:11 AM
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Part of the Problem I see is in the units you are using, as a example the Fire Dragons are fine but how are they being used? If they are in the Serpents then you are either not shooting getting the dragons closer or you are bring a EML into 12 inch range of the enemy. In other words the tactics are very schizophrenic.

Your Dire Avengers are fine as they are, although they are only really good at killing basic Marines, keep them out of LOS and try not to expose them to enemy fire. You want to be able to use them as area denial or bring them as a counter when a large group shows up close.

The War Walkers really shouldn't have two separate weapons, given what you are fighting they prob need to have 2 EML apiece. Stick them in Cover, Fortune, and Guide (or Prescience) them. This way they can kill his Walkers and have a chance to shoot down his Helldrake.

The FIre Dragons can stay in a serpent but the serpent has to be bare bones, you can't give it stuff since you are basically sending it to die.

If you can get a Bastion or a Ageis Defense Line put the FIre Dragons on the AA gun so you can kill the Heldrake with Tank Hunters and Crack Shot.

Eldrad can go Telepathy but given what you are fighting Divination might be a bit better for the 4+ invul and Ignore Cover ability.

The Regular Farseer doesn't need Runes of Warding, Eldrad shouldn't die, so he needs to keep Fortune and keep it on the both of them. IF you get a Ageis Defense line put them with the Dragons and Fortune. This way if you GtG you get a 2+ cover save.

You prob should put the Warlocks on Bikes, you will get more mileage out of them.

What you really need are some D-Cannons and/or Night Spinners and Prisms. You don't have enough long range weapons that have some Oomph. Try playing a game where the two Serpents are Fire Prisms and see how it plays out.

Based on your replies you seem to not like Allies. I would recommend it to fill in some gaps. Not using them is like playing Mario Kart and not hitting the item boxes.

Given your opponent A unit of Broadsides and some Plasma Suits would work wonders.

If you give me a points level I can make a list given what you have, you might wanna try proxying the Guardians as Harlequins and see how that works. If you give a unit of Harlies in cover Fortune they will never die.

Your main problem is the Helldrake, if you can kill that either with AA guns or Guided War Walkers your game will get much easier.

The Eldar, more than any other army, should not only look at the output of each unit individually, but the synergy of multiple units together and their role in the force as a whole. - Fable


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post #23 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-04-13, 12:45 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks a lot for you input its very good.

Seeing as our game is a physic powers themed game (because he beat me so bad last 2 times that we wanted to try and make it a little more fun with some fluff) I need to take the farseers and warlock as well as try out the brb powers so that sort of limits some of the ideas you present with regards to fourtune and gide on a lot of my stuff. However, these will be considered in future games.

The reason I have eml on the ws is because if my walkers go down again, I have to high s weapons to take shots at his armor (fogefeed, hekdrake, rink). At with 2hp and 10 armor the might go down again first thing.

I was thinking could put the normal farseer in a ws with the dragons, move 6 disembark 6 and then be in the 12 range to shoot hopefully first turn. If not move 12" shoot with tank and hope to live a round then high tail the tank out of range to pop shots and last turn contest. The eml will give me range and a s8 shot.

Also with elrad and the warlocks in the other ws, I was hoping to do the same sort of thing. However I expect to loose my tanks, but hopefully its on turn 2 or 3 so I can get a few eml shots in.

I think that I should take doom and fourtune on the normal farseer as to protect my tank.

I have read a lot and been told a lot to not mix weapons on my war walkers, but to me it seems like a good idea to have the sl and another weapon, because it gives me way more firepower. Could you expand on why this is not a good idea?

Our game is at 1250, the models I have at the moment are listed in my first post.
I will try to cut out 50 points to get a defense line to stick my da in to hopefully hold down an objective. And if my guardians sit on an objective I place 48" away maybe I can hold two.
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post #24 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-04-13, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by troybuckle View Post
Thanks a lot for you input its very good.

Seeing as our game is a physic powers themed game (because he beat me so bad last 2 times that we wanted to try and make it a little more fun with some fluff) I need to take the farseers and warlock as well as try out the brb powers so that sort of limits some of the ideas you present with regards to fourtune and gide on a lot of my stuff. However, these will be considered in future games.

The reason I have eml on the ws is because if my walkers go down again, I have to high s weapons to take shots at his armor (fogefeed, hekdrake, rink). At with 2hp and 10 armor the might go down again first thing.

I was thinking could put the normal farseer in a ws with the dragons, move 6 disembark 6 and then be in the 12 range to shoot hopefully first turn. If not move 12" shoot with tank and hope to live a round then high tail the tank out of range to pop shots and last turn contest. The eml will give me range and a s8 shot.

Also with elrad and the warlocks in the other ws, I was hoping to do the same sort of thing. However I expect to loose my tanks, but hopefully its on turn 2 or 3 so I can get a few eml shots in.

I think that I should take doom and fourtune on the normal farseer as to protect my tank.

I have read a lot and been told a lot to not mix weapons on my war walkers, but to me it seems like a good idea to have the sl and another weapon, because it gives me way more firepower. Could you expand on why this is not a good idea?

Our game is at 1250, the models I have at the moment are listed in my first post.
I will try to cut out 50 points to get a defense line to stick my da in to hopefully hold down an objective. And if my guardians sit on an objective I place 48" away maybe I can hold two.


Allow me to preface this post by saying the following

Life isn't fair, and neither is this fight

You are at a severe disadvantage in this fight for two main reasons, you are fighting a codex with a 7 year difference between them, and he has Flyers and you don't. Because of this and because you do not have any AA options you are going to have a very hard time fighting him on a even foothold. With that said letís see what we can do.

Guardians - They offer nothing to this fight beside a heavy Weapon, if he did not have a 36' moving Heavy Flamer on his side (See Helldrake) then you could take these and place them in Cover far away and maybe do something, because of his Flamer they are a liability and should not be taken if you can help it. If you do take them take a EML and place them FAR away from the action. Hiding the whole squad except the guy shooting the EML, this hould let them live beyond 1 or 2 turns and allow you to take a backfield objective.

Dire Avengers - See above, they are no better than the Guardians and do not bring a Heavy Weapon. You also cannot let them wander the table since T3 and 4+ saves do not mix, also the Baleflamer on the Helldrake or the Plasma Cannons from the Oblits. This means they need to go in a tank. You also have two options, you can kit them up for Shooting with Bladestorm Etc Etc, or you can kit them up for CC. In this situation a mixture of both might be best. You can setup the Exarch with the Invul and Power weapon, make the power weapon a Power Axe, allowing you to have some AP 2 in the squad. You can still give him Bladestorm. This would allow you to push them up in a tank and disembark and unload. Then when they are charged the Exarch can still kill stuff in CC, even if it has a 2+ save. However, this is not the "best" way to use them, give what you are facing you want to play on the defensive. Rushing up to him will only lose you the models.

War Walkers - These units are what you are going to have to rely on to save you. These are the only things you have that can bring good heavy weapons and can bring enough of them to matter. As for mixing weapons you don't do this for a number of reasons, one of the first and most important ones is that they almost all have different range bands, which means some of the time you are not shooting everything you have at all times which is a waste of your time and points. The second reason is people mostly use them for anti-armor so if you bring a anti infantry weapon like a Cannon or Laser then you will find the majority if not all of them will bounce off the hull of what you are shooting. The best example of this is a Land Raider, if you shoot a Land Raider with a Scatter Laser you cannot hurt it. Shooting at a AV 12 model with your setup grants you 12 shots and BS 3, meaning only 6 should hit on average, and you would only get 1 Glance. The missiles would hit 1.5 times, and do .75 glances or Pens. Meaning the thing you shot is still alive. If you had 6 EML's you would hit with 3 on average and get 1.5 Glances or Pens, giving you a excellent chance to get a damage result that will either kill it or disable it. I should also mention the Dual EML's will be doing this from 48' away *(or 54 with a 6' move), this means you can safely stay away from everything that is trying to kill you, except the Oblits, but they can only Las-Cannon you once every other turn, whereas with your setup you are doing this from 36'. In addition with the EML's you can throw out 6 Small Pinning Blasts which will eat T3 infantry and put the hurt on T4. The Dual lasers are great for putting wounds on models but have limited effect vs AV 12+, and are only 36'. Remember you want to stay away, in this case the Lasers are not the best choice.

Eldrad - While normally he is great he might be to expensive to play at 1250 without some sort CC backup (no 4 Warlocks are not backup) he is limited in what he can do. In this case you need to ask yourself, do you REALLY need his redeployment and do you really need his 3rd power>? If the answer is no then run him like a regular Farseer to save the points.

Farseer - Running him up into the jaws of the enemy is not what you do with these guys, if you really want to do so you need a large powerful unit in order to keep them alive, Dire Avengers or Fire Dragons won't cut it. They are not a assault HQ, they support, they are a force multiplier, thus you need to have forces to multiply. This means, on average, you will be sitting back, casting 1-2 powers and moving on. The units you buff need to be able to deal the damage, so you have to pick correctly. As for the powers if you want to use the BRB powers take the Primas Power from the Divination Tree, it is the EXACT SAME THING, and it also applies to CC as well as being 12 inches in range. This allows you to Guide the War Walkers to try and bring down the Flyers. So buy a 20 point power and trade it in. You will still need Fortune however which is why I recommend letting Eldrad keep his Eldar Psy Powers and letting the Farseer grab as many BRB powers as you want. Remember you NEED fortune, no way around it.

Warlocks - Since you only have 4 you cannot use them as a assault unit or use them as counter charge, what you CAN do is use them as a surgical strike unit focusing on hit and run tactics. This means you need to place them on jetbikes, if you do not have the models just pretend they are and proxy. Place them on jetbikes, Give them singing spears and Destructor and move them from LOS blocking terrain to LOS blocking terrain preventing them from being shot or assaulted. When you close on a unit you want to kill, either a squad of marines or a vehicle, you leap out of cover, unload with 4 Heavy Flamers or 4 STR 9 Spears and destroy or maim your target, and then slip back behind LOS blocking terrain with your second move. If you do not have LOS blocking terrain near your enemy, you either whittle them down with ranged shooting then pounce or let them get closer. IF they are still alive at end game then you can contest objectives with them. This is all made easier if you have a Farseer on a jetbike to Fortune them and Guide for Twin Linked Flamers and Spears.

Wave Serpents - You really should not be throwing away your expensive tanks by getting them close to the enemy. Make them work for it, normally I would not recommend putting a EML on a serpent since it is so damn expensive but in this unfair fight you need some ranged power. This means putting the tanks behind cover and using them to remove the enemy armor and flyers (the twin linked helps vs flyers), once this is accomplished you can then move up to contest objectives or tank shock as needed. Don't forget you can also Ram the crap out of something if you need to. You would be MUCH better off proxying them as Fire Prisms, that way you can threaten his Oblits and other units hiding across the table. This also allows you to pierce that 3+ armor on the marines.

Fire Dragons - Due to the change in disembarking you typically will need to wait a turn once you arrive in a serpent allowing your enemy to destroy not only the tank but the fragile units that pop out. In this edition and vs what you are fighting I would recommend placing them in the serpent with a EML (if you use this tactic) and only getting out when that Flyer gets close to try and knock it out, or if some Oblits Deep Strike nearby. Otherwise place them behind a LOS blocking wall and hope the Baleflamer doesnít eat you.

Vyper - This is a touch one, so very weak and open topped too. So we do the same thing as mentioned previously, a EML. Because the weapon is on a turret you can easy force a 3+ cover save allowing you to constantly fire. While you will only hit 50% of the time you at least have that chance, and also have the option of a Small Blast for the marines. No other Upgrades

Scorpions - These guys do not need a Serpent since they can Infiltrate, and you don't want to send one squad up against the army, this is why you will Outflank them. Allowing them to come in off the sides and hopefully hit a Havoc Squad or something, relieving the pressure off your main force. Give them the Fist so you can threaten even the oblits

Banshees - These girls are a liability same as with the guardians, at least in this matchup. Their Armor of 4+ will quickly get chewed by Bolters, heavy or not, and they do not have grenades to assault into cover. I would recommend proxying them as more Dragons or Scorpions for this game or better yet Warlocks.

So what have we learned, we do not want to get close to where the 36' heavy Bolters or Plasma Cannons can eat us, we certainly don't want to get within 24 for all those Bolt Guns and Plasma Guns and Hades Auto Cannons, meaning we want to play between 37+ where only his Las-cannons and Auto Cannons can reach us, so Str 9 and Str 7. If he leaves a unit of marines or Heavy Bolter havocs behind his lines ignore them, focus only on what advances. Then you use your fast vehicles to contest late game, since you do not own any Guardian jetbikes. We also need to be sneaky and hug cover as much as possible to mitigate those Str 9 and Str 7 shots, this is something the Eldar do well so do not worry.

For this matchup Units I wish you had

Dark Reapers
Support Weapon platforms
Night Spinners
Fire Prisms
Guardian jetbikes
Feugan The Burning Lance
Kahandras The Shadow hunter
Rangers
Warp Spiders


So taking all this into account here is what you need in order to achieve victory in a consistent fashion

Ageis Defense Line 85
Icarus Laser Cannon
Fire Dragons 112
Exarch, Dragons Breath Flamer, Tank hunters, Crackshot

Wave Serpent 120
EML

Wave Serpent 120
EML

War Walkers x3 210
EML, EML

Guardians x10 100
EML

Farseer 100 (Warlord, Roll on Strategic you want Stealth Ruins)
Fortune, Runes of Warding
Farseer 140 (Switch for BRB Divination) -You want the Primas Power and the 4+ invul
Spirit Stones, Mind War, Eldritch Storm, Doom

Dire Avengers x5 87
Exarch, Bladestorm

Warlocks x3 174
Bikes, Destructor, Singing Spears

1248

Dragons, Farseers both go in the Defense Line, the Dragon Exarch mans the Laser Cannon and brings down his Walker turn 1, No cover due to Crack Shot. When the Helldrake comes in you use the Intercept rule on the Cannon and shoot it out of the Sky, no cover save because of crack shot. With that done the two most dangerous models are gone. After that work on killing the Oblits. Deploy the Defense line against the table edge of your deployment zone as FAR AWAY as you can from everything else. The Farseer Fortunes the Dragon unit, if you get hit with many AP 4 or less attacks Go to Ground and get a 2+ cover save thanks to the Defense Line Special Rules.

If Possible you will fit the Guardians in the defense line as well, Pew Pew with the EML towards Armored Units, otherwise use the Small Blast and hit his Havocs until they are Pinned or Dead. Guardians cap your home objective

Walkers will PREFERABLY stay in the defense line or somewhere they get a 4+ cover, if you roll the 4+ invul power then it doesn't matter if they are in cover or not, use the Prescience power to make them re-roll their hits. If you got lucky and deployed the Dragons either out of LOS or so far he can't shoot you then Fortune the War Walkers, use them to either tank out any armor or SPAM blast markers on the enemy troops. You will kill many

Dire Avengers sit in a Serpent and try not to get killed, if some troops advance on you, disembark and Bladestorm, they will move towards a nearby objective when able on turns 4-6, try not advance until the Havocs are dead.

Warlocks will be your hunter kill unit, they will clean up whatever the Dragon Exarch and War Walkers leave alive, and go and roast any hiding marine, don't forget your second move to send them to safety. They will also try to contest or kill enemy troops. If the Oblits are rocking your world they can assault them but they wont live beyond 1-2 turns due to those power fists.

Wave Serpents sit back in cover (hopefully around 48' max range, remember you can premeasure) and pew pew at any models with Auto Cannons, with Blasts or Krak Shots (use blasts), first focus on killing enemy armor then move to infantry. If the enemy are holding a objective and the Warlocks are busy then they move and go Flat Out to contest a objective late game. Disembark the Avengers before you do this. Remember you don't have to cap ALL the objectives, just 1 more than the enemy.

Using the Above tactics you should be able to secure First Blood, and Line Breaker, depending on the enemy warlord and where he is you might be able to grab that too. Menaing you are ahead by 2 VP. Only aim at the things that threaten you on a turn by turn basis, once his Long Range fire power is down you can pick apart his army. It doesn't really matter if you go first or second, ideally to cap objectives you want to go second, otherwise you always want first so you can drop his Walker before it advances, the Hades Auto Cannon is only a 24' range but its a 30 with the move so killing it is a priority, the STR 8 doesn't matter since you are all T3, but the 8 shots do, meaning he can dakka down a squad quickly.

The Eldar, more than any other army, should not only look at the output of each unit individually, but the synergy of multiple units together and their role in the force as a whole. - Fable

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post #25 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-04-13, 09:44 PM Thread Starter
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First of wow thanks a lot this is good stuff + rep!

In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war... And getting pwned by newer dexs lol.

In all honestly I'm not expecting to win this game with my current models, but I know I can do better then killing one model and getting tabled that's embarrassing.

Your suggestions for this, and future, games is very good and I will defiantly use them.

For this game I hate to proxy models because Im not a fan of doing it. I don't mind people doing it cause its a good way to test something, but I would rather not. I also don't want to do it in this game because he is the only player in town and I don't want to come off as a power gamer.

Still I didn't like to get my ass kicked that hard, it kind of takes the fun out it after turn two and you know your finished. Still last game I played to the end and almost took out the hell drake with a singing spear on last turn.

For this list I'm going to drop down to 5 da, And use thouse points to upgrade some stuff.

I have a question I need answer reguarding war walkers ans maybe the wave surpant.

In the codex it says that if you take 2 of the same weapons on the walkers they become twinlinked. So would that mean I only get one twinlinked eml shot and not two. I always assumed one, which is why I never take the same two weapons?

I'm going to try and make a defense line for my eldar and a turret., might not be ready for this game, but it will for next.

P.s. in a box sitting on my to do shelf I have dark reapers, rangers, fire prism, falcon, and I'm currently painting more dire avengers more fire power is comming in the following months!!
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post #26 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-04-13, 10:30 PM
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No problem and Thanks, I enjoy Eldar players doing their best.

As for your question, double weapons on a "vehicle" do not become twin linked, that only applies to a Monstrous Creature (read Wraithlord), so double of anything on a War Walker, A Wave Serpent or a Vyper will not be TL unless it specifically says it is.

Also if you have Dark Reapers they make all of your marine problems go away. You can either point them at the target as normal (this kills the reapers) or you can give it a Tempest Launcher and remove squads without LOS and not giving them cover due to Crack Shot.

Really puts those marine players in their place!

The Eldar, more than any other army, should not only look at the output of each unit individually, but the synergy of multiple units together and their role in the force as a whole. - Fable

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post #27 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-04-13, 11:42 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks again. So that means my ws with there twinlinked eldar middle launchers have two shots instead of one? It says twinlinked in the dex but it also say launchers with an s as in two of them
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post #28 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-05-13, 08:48 AM
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From what I can remember it does not say putting two of the same weapon on a warwalker makes the weapon twin-linked. So, with two EML you get two shots, not twin-linked.
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post #29 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-05-13, 07:08 PM
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Wave Serpents only have a single twin-linked EML. Despite having a plural name it remains a single piece of wargear.

How do our guys set your terrain? Preset or random after after sides are determined. I ask as you may be able to squeeze in a few more heavy weapons if it is random as gun emplacements. Up to 3 per D3 per table section. I don't recommend this to be done often as our opponents could learn the same trick.
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post #30 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-10-13, 04:20 PM
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Could I get a update on how the second battle played out? I'm interested to know what happened.

The Eldar, more than any other army, should not only look at the output of each unit individually, but the synergy of multiple units together and their role in the force as a whole. - Fable

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