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post #1 of 24 (permalink) Old 01-19-13, 04:20 AM Thread Starter
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Default Icarus Lascannon vs Quad Gun

Hello. I am looking for opinions and advice on the Icarus Lascannon vs the Quad Gun.

I will be attending a 1500 pt tournament with my SoB. My list consists of the Saint and Uriah, a Battle Conclave, Repentia, a whole lotta SoB troops and some Exorcists. I will be taking an Aegis Defense Line for my anti-air and am unsure as to which gun to go with. I have not played with a defense line yet.

I am expecting some Helldrake heavy lists and whispers in the wind say that there will be some Lucius pattern drop-pods with Ironclad Dreadnoughts. Lucius pattern means the Ironclad can assault the turn it comes in.

Both have there advantages. Lascannon can handle the Ironclad, the Quad can pump out more shots. What are your thoughts?
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post #2 of 24 (permalink) Old 01-19-13, 04:23 AM
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Of late I am finding more reasonable shots are better than few great shots.
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post #3 of 24 (permalink) Old 01-19-13, 05:14 AM
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It all depends on what you are facing.

Against armor 12 the Lascannon is far more effective. Since you are facing a Heldrake, you will probably only get one chance to fire at it with your gun emplacement. The Lascannon has a higher potential to destroy the flier in a single round of shooting than the Quadcannon. It's worth nothing that the Baleflamer is a real menace to Sisters of Battle since it ignores their cover, armor save and wounds on a 2+. That means it can easily wipe out any SoB squad it wants to unless you can destroy it IMMEDIATELY.

Let's look at the math.
Icarus Lascannon:
Bs4, 3s to hit (you can use faith to make it reroll 1s if you're using your troops to fire the gun, or even make it twin linked if you use Dominions), so 1 hit, Str 9 means you need 3s to glance, 4s to pen. Good chance you will penetrate, and the AP2 gives you a +1 to either blow it up or destroy the real threat, that flamer!

Quadcannon:
Bs4, 3s to hit twin linked. You will most likely hit with 3 out of 4. At strength 7 you need 5s to Glance, 6s to pen. Since the Heldrake has 3 hullpoints you need to then get three 5s to wreck it or hope for a 6. Without the bonus on the damage table, your Pen won't be as effective either. Since the model can use Daemonic Possession it can also possibly ignore Shaken and Stunned results, meaning your pen may be even more useless unless you get a weapon destroyed or exploded result. So that's either rolling three 5s, or a 6 and another 5 or 6. Most likely you won't and the Baleflamer will kill whatever squad is manning the Quadcannon, giving you little hope of killing the Heldrake in later turns.

Your other best bet is to stay embarked in your transports since the Heldrake isn't as effective against armor as it is against infantry. By staying in your Rhinos you can reduce the chances of your Sisters getting burned alive instantly on a 2+ roll.

Keep your Excorcists behind your Aegis line as well to give them a 4++ cover save. With armor 13 fronts they should be very safe if you put them together so the sides are harder to hit. Make sure the rear armor is against the back of the game board or some impassible terrian to ensure that no Raptors or Assault troops can deepstrike down and use their melta guns to blow them up from your rear flanks.

Good luck friend.
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post #4 of 24 (permalink) Old 01-19-13, 05:28 AM
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The Heresy Calculator gives the Icarus 0.111 Glances and 0.333 Pens per turn where the Quad gun gets 0.593 Glances and pens per turn.
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post #5 of 24 (permalink) Old 01-19-13, 06:49 AM
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I forgot to add, it depends on your gaming group, so you should check with your Tourney Organizer about faith abilities and gun emplacement. I've seen some different interpretation on how they function on emplacements.

Usually it seems agreeable to say that the Troop's ability to reroll 1s to hit works on emplacements. With Dominion and Retributors however, only the "Unit's weapons" become twin linked or rending (respectively) it can be argued that these abilities do not effect the emplacement gun. It's worth checking though and asking if it's allowable to use those abilities with the weapon.

If in doubt, the Troops choice is probably best to fire the Icarus since you are only missing on 2s, effectively giving them a ballistic skill of 5 and making up for the weakness of not being Twin Linked like the Quadcannon. If you can manage to get the TO in agreement about allowing the Retributor's rending ability to work, the Quadcannon is better, but it's unlikely they will allow that.

Not to mention the extra points you save with an Icarus can be nice to use elsewhere. Remember your Excorcists and Retributors also are not too bad against flyers at any rate.
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post #6 of 24 (permalink) Old 01-19-13, 11:24 AM
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The Emplaced Gun rule says to use all the special rules of the firer so you'd think that would apply to Gun Emplacements as well.
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post #7 of 24 (permalink) Old 01-19-13, 07:14 PM
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Here is a quick easy answer

Are you shooting at a single Model? Then use the Lascannon
Are you shooting at a Vehicle Squad? Quad Gun

Even without a explosion result the chances you negate the Flyers ability to impact the table is very high with the Las Cannon, a roughly 50% chance to remove it from being useful when rolling on the damage chart.

This of course means nothing when a Valk Squad shows up, which is where the Quad gun comes in.

Now once you stop looking up, and pay attention to the ground the Quad gun becomes better as you can impact Scoring units with 4 shots as opposed to 1.

The Eldar, more than any other army, should not only look at the output of each unit individually, but the synergy of multiple units together and their role in the force as a whole. - Fable

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post #8 of 24 (permalink) Old 01-19-13, 08:04 PM
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My vote's with Magpie on this one. I have more luck with twin linked assault cannons than I do with twin linked lascannons, and the assault cannons are S6 rending. As far as math goes, the TLAC less likely to do anything over a S7 shot against AV12, yet my TLAC's are responsible almost every game for the death of a flier.

Even the best strategies can be ruined by rolling too many dice, so make sure you're always rolling as many as you can be on the offence and as few as you can on defence.

Unfortunately Canada got rid of the penny and now my two cents rounds down to zero, so...take it for what you will.

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post #9 of 24 (permalink) Old 01-19-13, 09:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntaw View Post
My vote's with Magpie on this one. I have more luck with twin linked assault cannons than I do with twin linked lascannons, and the assault cannons are S6 rending. As far as math goes, the TLAC less likely to do anything over a S7 shot against AV12, yet my TLAC's are responsible almost every game for the death of a flier.

Even the best strategies can be ruined by rolling too many dice, so make sure you're always rolling as many as you can be on the offence and as few as you can on defence.
You may want to reread your rulebook. The Quadcannon does NOT have the rending special rule. Otherwise I would agree that it is the better option in all circumstances. As it stands there are circumstances where one is better than the other. In the instance that the OP asks, against a Heldrake with 12 armor and extra armor ignoring low low results on the penetration damage table, the Lascannon is more effective since it has a higher chance to actually do something before your squad firing the gun emplacement is instantly killed by it's flamer.

Last edited by Arcane; 01-19-13 at 09:31 PM.
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post #10 of 24 (permalink) Old 01-19-13, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcane View Post
Page 105 says use the normal rules for shooting, not to use all the special rules of the firer. Perhaps you could share the page and paragraph this quote is from unless you're just pulling it out of thin air?
Is this another one where you're going to post like an arsehole and then have a big sook when I call you on it?

Page 96 under Emplaced Weapons - Manual Fire. READ IT

One could then construe that "normal rules for shooting" also includes Special Abilities which for that particular firer are "normal"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcane View Post
You may want to reread your rulebook. The Quadcannon does NOT have the rending special rule.
Rather than being a dick about reading the rule book perhaps you should read his post?
He compares the Assault Cannon to the the Lascannon and says he gets better results, he's not talking about the Quad Gun but using his experiences with the Assault Cannon to surmise how the Quad might go

Last edited by Magpie_Oz; 01-19-13 at 09:34 PM.
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