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post #1 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-07-12, 07:16 PM Thread Starter
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Default Ravenwing tactica

Ravenwing Tactica

The Ravenwing is the biker/land speeder equivalent of the vanilla Bike squad/Land Speeder squadron, only better. For starters, they are Fearless, have access to cheaper land speeder weapons, multimeltas for attack bikes, and teleporter homers as standard. Furthermore they have Scout and can count as troops if Sammael is present. Pretty neat, huh?

Ravenwing Attack Squadrons:

So there are 3 basic roles for RWA squadrons:
- Anti-tank. Essentially you want this to be as cheap as possible, so 3 bikers with 2 meltas and meltabombs plus an attack bike with multimelta. Turbo boost in the scout phase (behind some cover if you’re going 2nd), and then melt some armour in your first turn. Main priorities being land raiders, leman russ, battlewagons, manticores etc etc. Be prepared to lose this unit, as it can essentially work as a suicide squad if the odds are stacked against them – let them do as much damage as possible before they get taken out. Don’t forget about teleporter homers for DW, and then if they do survive they can run around harassing infantry with relentless TL bolters, and obviously taking out armour (or buildings!) where necessary.
- Anti-infantry. This comes in two types: horde or MEQ/TEQ. If facing hordes, max out with 6 bikes (2 flamers) and a HB attack bike. You can also take a speeder, but I find that simply buying a separate one is more versatile and potentially cheaper. Against MEQ/TEQ I go for double plasma with the apothecary upgrade, maybe throwing in a PW for good measure. Obviously you want to avoid combat, but are pretty neat for mopping up weakened Heavy Support units e.g. Devastators.
- “Tactical”. Essentially this means making maximum use of teleporter homers, combat squads and turbo boosting. Get close enough to the enemy T1 to drop in DW for terror/distraction units, then run around supporting other units with medium range firepower, taking out tanks and contesting/claiming last minute objectives with turbo boosts. Works best in RW or Dualwing lists, especially if Sammael is present.

Key points:
NEVER get into CC with CC-orientated units, and try not to with any other units either. The sole exceptions are if you need a tarpit unit or assaulting tanks (NOT WALKERS).
DON’T take the standard bearer upgrade. You’re Fearless anyway, and don’t want to be in CC, even with the support of an HQ.
DON’T mix and match loadouts. You need to be specific to be effective, otherwise it’s a wasted unit.
DON’T take the optional land speeder unless you have points to kill. It has a compulsory loadout, while you can get independent Typhoons for cheaper.
DO be points efficient. Don’t unnecessarily squander points on power fists etc when you won’t need them.
DO be considerate with how you use them. They are fragile units (especially in massed assaults due to Fearless), and need to be used with thought and care. Don’t just expose yourself to take out an empty rhino, just because you can.
When in doubt TURBO BOOST. That 3++ can save your bacon from where you least expect it.
Notes on deployment:
While you can outflank with RW, I think it is inadvisable to do so. Although you can take out unsuspecting rear-base campers, the crappy reserve rules undermine the reliability of doing so, with the added threat of appearing on the wrong side of the table. Stick with your standard scout move.
Scouting. If you get first turn, get as close as possible (TB) so you can get stuck in turn 1. Remember to leave a +12” gap between you and enemy CC units though, as otherwise you won’t survive long. If going second, at the very least turbo boost, and if possible, try and find cover to hide behind that’s close to enemy lines.
Combat squadding. I only really combat squad in RW lists when I need to cover lots of objectives. Otherwise I’m mostly running 3 man units, occasionally with attack bikes, so doing this compromises the squad’s durability.
If Sammael is present, try and fill as many troops slots as possible with RWASs, as they are extremely useful for objectives in the end-game (mostly in RW only lists). Otherwise, go for an even balance of DW to RW in the troops section. The other reason for shifting them into the troops slots is that it leaves more room for those valuable Typhoon speeders.

Sammael:
- In his land speeder, Sammael is pretty much the last word in anti-horde firepower (i.e. anything with a 4+ or worse save). Those twin-linked assault cannon and heavy bolter allow him to completely decimate units at 24”, while being protected from return fire by the Shield of the Night. Just watch out for those sneaky units that’ll creep up behind you, or those pesky melta units. Don’t forget about turbo boosts either for the cover save, as that can really do you favours against fast enemies.
Generally the better choice of the two, particularly against infantry or light vehicle armies – Tyranids cry at the sight of him.
- The jetbike is a tricky unit to use on account of the fact that Sammael is not an Independent Character, and therefore cannot join other units. He is excellent with his relentless plasma cannon and storm bolters for taking out MEQ/TEQ, but is in itself a very specialised role. Don’t be afraid to get stuck in with his MC power weapon, but don’t leave him unsupported, as although he is immune to being insta-gibbed and is T5, he is easily wiped by CC or large units. More of a surgical precision weapon than a blunt hammer, try to use him in the most effective way so he can quickly make up his points, and try not to leave him too exposed.
A good unit if you know how to use him and are careful with him. Devastating against MEQ, by using a combination of CC relentless shooting.

Ravenwing Support Squadrons:

So again, you have three main types of speeder squadrons to pick from:
- Anti-infantry. This consists of one or more speeders tooled up with heavy bolters, assault cannons and typhoon launchers who then target infantry units. Pretty simple really.
- Anti-armour. This type is made up of purely Multimeltas and Typhoon launchers. Obviously as you can’t deep strike there isn’t much call for MM/HF speeders in DA lists, especially when the typhoon launcher is so cheap. You can go for assault cannons, but I find them less reliable, and way too expensive for this role.
- Generic fire support. This is just basically a TML speeder, with a secondary weapon of your choice sitting back and lending fire support to any area of the board where necessary. Pretty simple really…

Key Points:
As usual try and keep away from stuff that can kill you, especially as land speeders are made of paper and everything.
I tend to avoid multiple model squadrons in favour of independent speeders as then you can split firepower and you won’t overkill every unit you target.
Turbo boost whenever you’re not shooting or need to get out of trouble.
Avoid certain weapon combos e.g. HF/HB, AC/MM, AC/HF, TML/HF, as they don’t pair up too well as one weapon will always be wasted. Pick weapons that complement each other.
SNEAKY TACTIC*: If there’s a land raider/battlewagon/raider filled with CC nasties heading towards your lines, stick (and if possible turbo boost) a speeder in the way of it. It then has 3 options:
o Ram it (probably miss due to the cover save).
o Go around it/shoot it, giving you an extra turn to run away/kill it
o Make the CC unit get out and assault it, leaving them exposed

If I’ve missed anything please ask

*Disclaimer – this tactic is not an original of mine, as I nicked it off a very good tactica in which OddJob (all credit to him), posted this beauty.

The Black Typhoons | Dark Angels 3rd Company | Tharrus Draw's Warband | Dark Angels' Corner | Codices: Marvel Heroes and Marvel Villains

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Spanner's got some great advice as well... Listen to that wise man.

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post #2 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-07-12, 07:59 PM
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Good insight to the worls of bikes. A great starting point for anyone wanting to play with the bikes of the lion.
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post #3 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-08-12, 04:23 PM
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I registered here purely because of this.

Please, please stop writing tacticas. Your advice is mostly bad and your writing style not great.

- ravenwing cannot turbo boost in the scout move. to tell prospective players they can is a lie, and is no basis for tactics.
- due to your writing style, i can't tell whether you run the attack bike attached to the ravenwing squad or not (in your combat squad bit). If you do, this is also incorrect. the attack bike is forced to combat squad and is an independent unit, always.

Your deathwing tactica is marginally better. There are points there i disagree with but can be argued.
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post #4 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-08-12, 07:12 PM
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Instead of bashing this and just saying no... how about adding some insight into the tactica? Rather than just trolling you couls instead elaborate on the points that you feel need some work and hence we can use the forum format to build on ideas making them better.
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post #5 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-08-12, 07:34 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericthegreen View Post
I registered here purely because of this.

Please, please stop writing tacticas. Your advice is mostly bad and your writing style not great.
Any comments on how to improve my style, or just moaning?

- ravenwing cannot turbo boost in the scout move. to tell prospective players they can is a lie, and is no basis for tactics.
From the 5th Ed FAQ on the GWS website:
Q: Can bikes Turbo Boost during their Scout move?
(p76)
A: Yes they now can, but remember that they have to
remain more than 12 away from the enemy as they
move.

- due to your writing style, i can't tell whether you run the attack bike attached to the ravenwing squad or not (in your combat squad bit). If you do, this is also incorrect. the attack bike is forced to combat squad and is an independent unit, always.
I intended to say that I normally only combat squad with 6 man squads when running predominantly RW lists. I do tend to avoid attack bikes in this situation due to their fragility when independent. Sorry if this wasn't made clear.

Your deathwing tactica is marginally better. Thank you? There are points there i disagree with but can be argued.
Just an FYI, this is my guide to Ravenwing tacticas, so you may well disagree with it, but you don't just go and say "please stop writing tacticas" as it is not helpful or constructive. Just comment on what you think should be changed, as you don't seem to be providing any alternatives better tactics.

Thanks Skari

The Black Typhoons | Dark Angels 3rd Company | Tharrus Draw's Warband | Dark Angels' Corner | Codices: Marvel Heroes and Marvel Villains

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Spanner's got some great advice as well... Listen to that wise man.

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post #6 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-09-12, 08:37 AM
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Unfortunately, Ravenwing can't turbo in their scout move like everyone else.

Codex Dark Angels Pg 27
"Note that no model may make a Turbo Boost move whilst using the scout special rule."

Right in the Ravenwing entry (not the army list one). Codex trumps rulebook.

My dualwing and I would love to be proved wrong on this btw.
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post #7 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-09-12, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spanner94ezekiel View Post
Just an FYI, this is my guide to Ravenwing tacticas, so you may well disagree with it, but you don't just go and say "please stop writing tacticas" as it is not helpful or constructive. Just comment on what you think should be changed, as you don't seem to be providing any alternatives better tactics.
Yesterday was the culmination in seeing a LOT of bad tactics on the internet. Bad tactics lead to people buying models they don't need, getting frustrated with them on the table and leaving the hobby (i've seen it happen). You caught the rough end of my day.

As for your writing style, it's very block of texty and rambling. Make your points more succinctly. If they need elabortaing, make the point as a title and elaborate underneath so the core message doesn't get lost.

Fishywinkles is correct, codex trumps rulebook. We can't turboboost in the scout move, so that changes a lot of the information you have in the tactica.

Scoutmove first turn will get your multimeltas in range, but your meltas will definiately be out of +2d6 range, which means they need to be targetted at transports with lighter armour to do anything. This is good practice anyway because it lets you make the most of your mobility advantage.

Never take the heavy bolter attack bike. It's more expensive than the equivalent in other armies and you are sacrificing the anti tank fire that every army sorely needs. Anti infantry can be taken in other areas (squads with plasma, typhoon/hb speeders, autobolter preds). So much so that the whirlwind (which is generally useless) actually has a place in the ravenwing army as your anti infantry piece.

Outflanking is very useful. First off, you have a threat range of 18 inches with the bikes and 24 inches with the attack bike against tanks. If you have 3 or 4 outflanking squads, your opponent, if they've got anything about them, will be castling up in the middle of the table to deny you those shots. You can use this to your advantage by getting side armour shots with typhoons and Sammael and limiting objectives that your opponent can claim.

I would never take the 3 extra bikes. 100 points for 3 relentless bolters and no combat potential just isn't worth it. The beauty of the ravenwing is getting 2 meltas and a multimelta into a nice 190 point block that can hit 2 targets a turn.

Regarding the fragility - yes, mulitmelta attack bikes are fragile. They are also small and easy to hide. Same with 3 man ravenwing squads. But if you have 16 targets at 1750 points (which is easily doable with 6 squads, 6 attack bikes and 3 speeders), your enemy has to split his fire. By being numerous, you increase your survivability. Because you are fearless, and can claim cover easily, it actually takes quite a bit of focused firing to eliminate your bikes. This is your advantage.


Quote:
Originally Posted by spanner94ezekiel View Post
Key points:
NEVER get into CC with CC-orientated units, and try not to with any other units either. The sole exceptions are if you need a tarpit unit or assaulting tanks (NOT WALKERS).
I'd even go so far as to say never get into CC. Without Deathwing, there is no way to get efficient CC ability into a Ravenwing list.
DONT take the standard bearer upgrade. Youre Fearless anyway, and dont want to be in CC, even with the support of an HQ.
As above. Ravenwing have no combat. If you want combat bikes, go regular marines.
DONT mix and match loadouts. You need to be specific to be effective, otherwise its a wasted unit.
True
DONT take the optional land speeder unless you have points to kill. It has a compulsory loadout, while you can get independent Typhoons for cheaper.
You shouldn't be taking the 3 extra bikes either, they add very little.
DO be points efficient. Dont unnecessarily squander points on power fists etc when you wont need them.
General rule for army building, but fair enough.
DO be considerate with how you use them. They are fragile units (especially in massed assaults due to Fearless), and need to be used with thought and care. Dont just expose yourself to take out an empty rhino, just because you can.
Rhinos should be dealt with by typhoons from range. However, as per my earlier points, your regular melta bikers should probably gun for rhinos first turn, if you use them in this way at all.
When in doubt TURBO BOOST. That 3++ can save your bacon from where you least expect it.
A good move for melta bikers on turn 1 to position for later.

Notes on deployment:
While you can outflank with RW, I think it is inadvisable to do so. Although you can take out unsuspecting rear-base campers, the crappy reserve rules undermine the reliability of doing so, with the added threat of appearing on the wrong side of the table. Stick with your standard scout move.
I've covered this above.
Scouting. If you get first turn, get as close as possible (TB) so you can get stuck in turn 1. Remember to leave a +12 gap between you and enemy CC units though, as otherwise you wont survive long. If going second, at the very least turbo boost, and if possible, try and find cover to hide behind thats close to enemy lines.
As above.
Combat squadding. I only really combat squad in RW lists when I need to cover lots of objectives. Otherwise Im mostly running 3 man units, occasionally with attack bikes, so doing this compromises the squads durability.
Like I said, you can fit 12 scoring units in 1750 with ease. You don't need the bigger squads. If they are in the fast attack slot, they're suicide anti tank units.
If Sammael is present, try and fill as many troops slots as possible with RWASs, as they are extremely useful for objectives in the end-game (mostly in RW only lists). Otherwise, go for an even balance of DW to RW in the troops section. The other reason for shifting them into the troops slots is that it leaves more room for those valuable Typhoon speeders.
What Ravenwing excel at is melta hunter teams, and MSU philosophy. Where they need backup is anti infantry. Now, if you're taking 6 multimelta attack bikes, you can afford to stick a couple of plasma guns in your ravenwing. I tend to avoid flamers because it gets me too close, but having 1 flamer team is useful. But Typhoon/Bolter speeders, auto/bolter preds, whirlwinds (bizarrely enough) are all good back up to a pure Ravenwing army.

If you're running doublewing, you're nearly always better off with Deathwing in the troops slot due to their survivability and ability to hold objectives, rather than boost in last turn to claim.

Constructive enough for ya?
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post #8 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-09-12, 04:27 PM
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Now that is what I am talking about. An in depth review of the above posted tactica.
+rep!
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post #9 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-09-12, 11:21 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericthegreen View Post
Yesterday was the culmination in seeing a LOT of bad tactics on the internet. Bad tactics lead to people buying models they don't need, getting frustrated with them on the table and leaving the hobby (i've seen it happen). You caught the rough end of my day.
Fair enough, I forgive you.

As for your writing style, it's very block of texty and rambling. Make your points more succinctly. If they need elabortaing, make the point as a title and elaborate underneath so the core message doesn't get lost.
Point duly noted.

Fishywinkles is correct, codex trumps rulebook. We can't turboboost in the scout move, so that changes a lot of the information you have in the tactica.
Hm, this is news to me, as I thought the FAQ would overrule it, but seeing as there is corroborative evidence to suggest otherwise, I need to make some edits.

Scoutmove first turn will get your multimeltas in range, but your meltas will definiately be out of +2d6 range, which means they need to be targetted at transports with lighter armour to do anything. This is good practice anyway because it lets you make the most of your mobility advantage.
While this is true, I find it more worthwhile to take out high AV threats first, as typhoons can deal with rhinos, so getting as close as possible is necessary. However, if there isn't such a threat present, then fair enough.

Never take the heavy bolter attack bike. It's more expensive than the equivalent in other armies and you are sacrificing the anti tank fire that every army sorely needs. Anti infantry can be taken in other areas (squads with plasma, typhoon/hb speeders, autobolter preds). So much so that the whirlwind (which is generally useless) actually has a place in the ravenwing army as your anti infantry piece.
On consideration I agree, though it is occasionally helpful if facing horde armies and you have points leftover.

Outflanking is very useful. First off, you have a threat range of 18 inches with the bikes and 24 inches with the attack bike against tanks. If you have 3 or 4 outflanking squads, your opponent, if they've got anything about them, will be castling up in the middle of the table to deny you those shots. You can use this to your advantage by getting side armour shots with typhoons and Sammael and limiting objectives that your opponent can claim.
Yes while outflanking can be effective, it is incredibly unreliable due to reserve rolls and the 50:50 chance of getting the chosen table edge. Furthermore, to have multiple outflanking units is a costly part of you army, making it more easy to be destroyed piecemeal as you have less starting on the table.
I would never take the 3 extra bikes. 100 points for 3 relentless bolters and no combat potential just isn't worth it. The beauty of the ravenwing is getting 2 meltas and a multimelta into a nice 190 point block that can hit 2 targets a turn.
They do however improve the squad's durability, and you can split into more combat squads with melta capabilities. Saying that, I agree 100 points for 3 models is a bit much.
Regarding the fragility - yes, mulitmelta attack bikes are fragile. They are also small and easy to hide. Same with 3 man ravenwing squads. But if you have 16 targets at 1750 points (which is easily doable with 6 squads, 6 attack bikes and 3 speeders), your enemy has to split his fire. By being numerous, you increase your survivability. Because you are fearless, and can claim cover easily, it actually takes quite a bit of focused firing to eliminate your bikes. This is your advantage.
Fair point, though I think the chance of a ML instagibbing the AB early on is inevitable with the abundance of missilespam.



What Ravenwing excel at is melta hunter teams, and MSU philosophy. Where they need backup is anti infantry. Now, if you're taking 6 multimelta attack bikes, you can afford to stick a couple of plasma guns in your ravenwing. I tend to avoid flamers because it gets me too close, but having 1 flamer team is useful. But Typhoon/Bolter speeders, auto/bolter preds, whirlwinds (bizarrely enough) are all good back up to a pure Ravenwing army.
Not just meltahunter teams, but mediumrange firesupport, as TL relentless bolters are nothing to be sniffed at. They are most effective at tank hunting, but still have functionable roles outside of that. Good point with the flamers, though they can be good for finishing off depleted infantry squads.

If you're running doublewing, you're nearly always better off with Deathwing in the troops slot due to their survivability and ability to hold objectives, rather than boost in last turn to claim. While I think that DW are good in troops for dualwing, the bikers' ability to turboboost means they can claim objectives half the board away in the space of a turn which is indispensible. Half the time termies are either contesting objectives in CC, or are off fighting elsewhere (excluding shooty units), so don't necessarily need to be troops to succeed.

Constructive enough for ya?
Thank you for that, seeing as in depth criticism is rarely seen these days. I'll make some appropriate edits to the tactica, and take on board the points you have made. +rep for being a mature critic.

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post #10 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-12-12, 11:18 AM
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Thing with the scout move is that it's very easily countered by deployment - bubblewrap, deploying on the back line. That's why outflank is nice to keep people honest.

as to combat squads - 1 meltagun is rarely enough to get the job done, due to random chance, so you will inevitably need 2 in a squad, or have to double up your combat squads, defeating the point of combat squadding in the first place.

TL reltentess bolters are nice, but the points you pay for the bike don't give you the volume of fire necessary to be a true fire support unit.

As for dual wing. Bikes rarely survive long enough to contest in the final turn. One of the tricks with playing deathwing is scoring unit management - making sure you can claim more objectives, so your opponents troops jump up the target priority.
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